The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. Before we begin, I wish to inform Members, in accordance with Standing Order 26.75, that the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Act 2024 was given Royal Assent on Wednesday 14 February.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The first item this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question this afternoon is from Russell George.

Apprenticeships

Russell George AC: 1. How is the Welsh Government increasing apprenticeship opportunities in mid Wales? OQ60687

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Russell George for that question. The Welsh Government will continue to make significant investment in apprenticeships throughout Wales. Creating new opportunities in mid Wales relies upon promoting the benefits of quality apprenticeship routes to both employers and learners.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, First Minister. Last week, I was pleased to congratulate Calum Greatorex, an apprentice working at Carpenter and Paterson Ltd in Welshpool, who recently won the apprenticeship of the year from Skills Academy Wales as a level 3 apprentice. It was also good to speak with Leighton Rowlands Jones and Spencer Roberts, also apprentices at the company. The company in Welshpool is well established. It's involved in the business design and manufacturing of products for industries such as power generation, renewable energy and nuclear, and the workforce is currently made up of approximately 12 per cent apprentices. It was also good to meet with Myrick Training Services, a not-for-profit company that helps to support businesses linked with apprenticeships, and also offers apprenticeships from level 2 through to and including level 5. They do have concerns with the Welsh Government's draft budget in regard to the proposed budget cuts in regard to apprenticeships. So, I wonder, First Minister, if you could outline what discussions you've had with apprenticeship providers about these concerns, because I'm sure you'll agree with me that we need to back apprenticeships in Wales in order to increase future talent as well, and success, such as in the story of Calum Greatorex.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Russell George for that, Llywydd, and, of course, congratulate the young people that he has referred to. It is great to hear of a firm that has 12 per cent of its workforce as apprenticeships, because they are, as he said, the young people who will be learning the skills that they will need for the future. And the Welsh Government will go on—we will spend over £400 million in apprenticeships over this Senedd term, and, in the next financial year, we will continue to invest £138 million, as you see in the draft budget.
Now, of course, the Minister and the finance Minister have been listening carefully to the points that have been made by committees, including Russell George's committee, during the scrutiny process, and will be looking to see where there are any changes that can be made when the final budget is brought before the Senedd. But, as the Member will know, right around the Senedd there have been calls for additional funding for a whole range of purposes, and that has included apprenticeships.We continue to be in dialogue with all 10 providers—all 10 providers are active in mid Wales. Officials held a meeting with all 10 of them earlier this month in order to plan ahead and to make the very best use of the very significant investment in this important area that is still there in the budget proposals for next year.

Domestic Violence

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 2. What steps is the Government taking to deal with domestic violence? OQ60714

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the practical actions to which the Government is committed in dealing with domestic violence are set out in our national strategy. Partners across the private, public and specialist sectors are delivering these actions. Devolved services, and those that are not devolved, have come together in support of this agenda in Wales.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the First Minister for that response. The statistics from north Wales are shocking. Sixty-five per cent of all crime in north Wales relates to domestic violence. There are more cases of domestic violence and sexual violence in north Wales than in any other part of the UK outside of London. That's why the work of Gorwel is so very important. The First Minister will be aware of Gorwel—a programme by the Cynefin social housing group, which is funded through the housing support grant, and supports those who are suffering domestic violence, among other important work. For every £1 that Gorwel receives, it produces £3.56 in community value. But if the Government doesn't increase the housing support grant, then this programme, and other similar provisions across Wales, will be under threat, and we will see more cases of domestic violence, more demand on police services, and more pressures on health and housing services. Given the importance of this, therefore, is the First Minister willing to commit to ensuring that the housing support grant receives the necessary increase in order to continue with the important work that these providers deliver?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for that question. I'm very aware of the work that Gorwel is doing, of course. As to the figures that the Member has referred to, it's very painful to hear them. But one of the reasons why we have those figures is because agencies such as Gorwel, and others, raise awareness and provide confidence to people to come forward and report incidents to the police, and so forth. As I said in response to Russell George, across the Chamber Members are asking the Government to find more money for a range of things—and important things, of course. But when the funding that we have is not adequate to do everything that we want to do as a Government, there are tough decisions to be made. As I said, the Minister for finance has been listening to everything that the Senedd committees have said through the scrutiny process, and the final budget will come before Members before long.

Altaf Hussain AS: First Minister, sadly, domestic violence remains very high, with 7 per cent of women and 3 per cent of men experiencing domestic abuse in the past year, largely unchanged from the previous 12 months. If we are to put an end to domestic abuse and violence, we need to educate potential perpetrators that violence and abuse is never the answer. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the effectiveness of the Live Fear Free campaign in educating future generations of the impact of domestic violence on victims and society as a whole?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, again, Llywydd, I thank the Member for that question. He points to the same dilemma that was there in the original question. The purpose of our programmes in Wales is to persuade more people to come forward and report incidents of domestic violence when these occur. You can then read the success of persuading people to have the confidence that there are services available as a sign that there is more domestic violence than there was in a previous period. I think there is a very plausible argument that we are simply uncovering more of what was already there. And the Live Fear Free helpline, which is there 24 hours a day, every day of the year, is there to give confidence to people who find themselves in these awful circumstances that there is always going to be help available to them. And the fact that there are more calls to the line in some years can be thought of as a success of that effort, rather than a sign that things are getting worse. We have just to be careful about the way that we interpret those figures.
Where I absolutely agree with what both Members have said is that those figures are far, far too high, and that there is a huge amount to be done in education, in providing services, both to survivors and perpetrators of domestic violence, to get to the sort of Wales that we want to be, where people don't live in fear of what might happen to them inside their own homes.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I'm really glad to hear the First Minister give a shout-out to the Live Fear Free helpline. It's timely because, whilst we've heard today that violence against women and girls is still a major problem right across society, in all parts of Wales and all types of domestic settings, we also see a rise in violence around that time of major sporting events, including of course the six nations rugby championship. Now, part of the solution to this has to be the high-profile support of our rugby institutions and our rugby clubs, including the Welsh Rugby Union, of course, but also clubs like the fantastic Ospreys, who've done promotions on this themselves—and they had a great result on the weekend, by the way, against Ulster, which we all commend—but all of our regional clubs, also our local clubs too, who have such a role to play and such an influence to make in championing the campaign against domestic violence and abuse. So, would he join me in calling for everyone to cheer on Wales on the weekend, when they've got a mountain to climb in Dublin, though we're used to scaling mountains, of course, in Wales, and calling on everyone in the rugby family to speak out against domestic violence and abuse?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for that. Of course, those organisations that have such status in Welsh communities and in Welsh public life can do so much to encourage and persuade people to act in the ways that everyone in this Chamber would wish to see. We discussed the Welsh Rugby Union on the floor of the Senedd only a few weeks ago, and I am pleased to commend the work that the union is doing, it's promotion of the women's game, but also in the way that it can help to tackle attitudes that in the past may have gone unchallenged and today we know we have to confront in that direct way.
I'm very grateful for the help that the Welsh Government has received from sporting organisations in the Sound campaign, that campaign aimed at young men as they embark upon forming relationships in their own lives. We've had around 100 direct participants in the campaign—role models, people who speak out to others. In the first phase of the campaign, around 400,000 young people in Wales have been reached by the different ways in which that campaign aims to communicate the importance to young men, in particular, of having respectful relationships with others embedded in the way in which they themselves grow up. And as to the points that the Member has made about rugby clubs, and other sporting organisations as well that are of standing in those local communities, they can do a great deal to help.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer, and I draw Members' attention to my declaration of interests on the register. First Minister, yesterday, in your press conference, you alluded to the fact that, on the sustainable farming scheme, farmers just want to be able to do whatever they want with the money and not be held to account. Is that your understanding of the anger, the frustration and the deep, deep concern that farmers have around the SFS, because I know of no farmer who doesn't expect to be held to account for the money that they receive from the taxpayer in receipt of the goods that they provide in return for the actions they take on their farm? And, indeed, every survey indicates that, for every £1 spent by the taxpayer in support of the agriculture industry, between £7 and £9 is returned in public good.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the Welsh Government is committed to going on supporting farmers and the rural economy. It's why we have sustained the total amount that we put into the basic payment scheme in full here in Wales—an enormous contrast with the way farmers have been treated in England, of course. The point I made yesterday, and I make it again today, is that the public in Wales will go on investing in farming, and the public is entitled to see a return on that investment. That is what the sustainable farming scheme is all about. At the very top of the list is the investment that we will make in sustainable food production, but, alongside that, there are other things, very important things, that farmers do today that we want to go on rewarding them for doing in the future—all those environmental stewardship things, that, in an era of climate change, take on an even greater significance. So, there is a bargain here. That is the bargain that the sustainable farming scheme represents. It's why we've had a seven-year conversation with farmers in Wales about getting that bargain right. We're in the final days of the latest consultation, and I hope that as many people as possible will take part in it, so that we can get to a final scheme that continues to invest in the future of the countryside and our farming communities, and does so in a way that delivers the return on that investment to which the public is entitled to look.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: I agree with you that the public are entitled, and that's why I used those important figures of the return for the investment that the taxpayer makes. But you did go on in that press conference to say that your understanding was, 'Just do whatever farmers think they would like to do with it'—'it' being the money that the taxpayer puts in to support agriculture. And it's a really tough sell, because your own analysis talks of 5,500 job losses, a reduction of 125,000 cattle, 800,000 sheep, and a £200 million loss in economic activity in the rural economy. Those aren't my figures; those are the figures that, obviously, the Government has put forward.
When we talk of trying to have a sustainable farming scheme that provides food security, on those sorts of numbers, clearly there is little or no weighting for food security. How on earth can farmers have confidence in the Government's position when those numbers are attached to the briefing? Can you confirm today, First Minister, that food security is a vital ingredient of these consultations that you are having at the moment and, ultimately, that food security will have equal weighting with the critical environmental gains that we want to see farmers play a part in delivering to reach net zero by 2050?

Mark Drakeford AC: First of all, to deal with the point the Member made about the financial analysis that was published, at least the Welsh Government has published a financial analysis. We learned today that the UK Government has refused to publish the financial analysis of its proposals for farming communities in England, whereas we have put those figures into the public domain. We put them into the public domain precisely in order to have an informed consultation, where we can agree proposals for the final sustainable farming scheme that will mitigate some of those risks that otherwise would have been there. Not only can I confirm to the leader of the opposition that sustainable farming is a vital ingredient in the SFS, it is the top ingredient. It is the first thing we say: that the sustainable farming scheme is designed to secure sustainable food production here in Wales.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: When you look at the figures that I've put to you, First Minister, and in particular those critical job losses and economic output losses, it is difficult for any reasonable person to come to the conclusion that the SFS, as currently constructed, will deliver that sustainable farming offer from the Welsh Government or future Welsh Governments. So, I ask you again to confirm that food security is a vital part of the proposals and that you will make sure that food security has that equal weighting with the environmental gains that, ultimately, we all want to see, and that there will be a rethink on the 10 per cent compulsory tree cover that is a demand of the current proposals that are on the table. Because that SFS document that is brought forward will devalue farms, cost jobs and devastate the ability to deliver food that the nation requires for the future.

Mark Drakeford AC: I think it's important that I remind the leader of the opposition why we are in the position that we are in: it's because farmers in Wales took his advice and voted to leave the European Union. That's why that is—[Interruption.] Well, there we are. Believe me, we are in the position that we are in today because we have taken back control of farming support in Wales, as we were obliged to do. If farmers in Wales were still able to have access to the funds that were available through the European Union, they would be in a very different position than they are having heard and followed his advice. I've answered many of his questions already this afternoon; I won't go over that again.
As far as tree planting is concerned, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of farms in Wales already have 10 per cent of their land under tree cover. Nobody is forced to plant trees in Wales; we were determined to offer farmers the first chance in Wales to grow the trees that we will need, because we will need thousands and thousands more trees in Wales in an era of climate change. We're committed to doing that and we're committed to offering farmers the first chance to do so. Where it is not possible, where, because of the topography of the land or other considerations, it isn't possible to reach 10 per cent, the Minister has already set out proposals so that farmers wouldn't be expected to reach that. Where farmers can, where it is reasonable to expect farmers to make a contribution to mitigating climate change, they will be rewarded for doing so in the sustainable farming scheme.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Plaid Cymru leader, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Last week came confirmation that the UK economy had entered recession. But it's not just the economy that's in reverse; the decline of vital industries in Wales and the communities that they sustain, whether that's agriculture, steel or hospitality, bears all the hallmarks of a social recession too. Steel is fighting for its life; the tractors, we know, are already on the roads; and the latest 'closed for business' sign is going up in yet another eatery in the First Minister's own constituency. I've stood here long enough now to know that the First Minister will lay blame at Westminster's door: 'It's lack of funding'. And, of course, Plaid Cymru has long argued that Wales is not funded fairly; we can certainly agree on that. But does the Labour Party agree—Keir Starmer's Labour Party? Does he agree that Wales is not fairly funded? And if he does, why isn't he still pledging to put that right, even on something as fundamentally unjust as the loss of billions of pounds of HS2 consequentials? And why is the First Minister failing to persuade him?

Mark Drakeford AC: We have this question week after week after week, in which the Member wants to ask questions of somebody who isn't in the Senedd about responsibilities that aren't exercised in the Senedd. I've said to him before that there's a place where he could ask those questions, and maybe he'd rather be there. Let him, just for a moment, ask me a question about what I'm responsible for and I'll do my best to give him an answer.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'll repeat the question. What is the First Minister doing to persuade the leader of the Labour Party to get to grips with fair funding for Wales? Plaid Cymru MPs will gladly hold Keir Starmer to account if Welsh Labour Ministers here are unwilling to.
The thing is that people want to know that Government is on their side. I think it's pretty clear that the Conservatives are on no-one's side but their own, and that is why I fully expect them to be thrown out of power this year. It is long, long overdue. But Plaid Cymru is ready to hold whoever is in power at Westminster to account. After the ousting of the Tories, people would then look to see if Labour is on their side. Of course, they're already doing that in Wales, and many have concluded that Labour is falling short here. And it's falling short in areas that you'd expect Labour, from their own rhetoric, to prioritise.
One of the cornerstones of the First Minister's manifesto for the Labour leadership was the promotion of equality through the real living wage, but I can tell him that two thirds of workers paid through the housing support grant, for example, are still paid less than the real living wage. Does the First Minister regret that, and when can we expect that to be put right?

Mark Drakeford AC: Selective quotation from manifestos doesn't get us very far. I've looked at Labour's manifesto; it makes no reference at all to paying the real living wage in the context that he just described. What it does make a commitment to is paying the real living wage to social care workers here in Wales. That was the single most expensive commitment in our manifesto and money has been mobilised year after year to deliver it. I am glad, every year, that there is a growing number of real living wage employers here in Wales and more people benefiting from it. I hope that that number will go on growing in the future, and I hope there will be opportunities for people in the field to which he has referred. In order to do so, you have to have the funding available. Week after week, he asks me to find more money for this and more money for that, and no doubt he's about to ask me to find more money for another purpose again; what he never ever does is tell me where that money would come from.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'm very surprised, I must say, that the First Minister doesn't seem to regret that those working on housing support grant projects aren't paid the real living wage. Maybe I misunderstood what Labour had promised. There's certainly a possibility of overpromising going on, but we can certainly see plenty of signs of underdelivery.
This Labour Government is failing to meet its own key performance indicators on many topics. That doesn't help when Government then sets KPIs for others to meet that are not only difficult to meet but could be detrimental to their well-being, and that's how the agriculture sector feels right now: a top-down Welsh Government telling them how to farm whilst being out of tune with what it takes to ensure productive and environmentally friendly agriculture, which is what the sector strives for.
Yesterday, we heard the First Minister telling farmers on one hand that their voice will shape the sustainable farming scheme and on the other that it's not up to them how the scheme works. Whether it's steel, whether it's hospitality or retail or it's agriculture, surely the role of the Welsh Government is to be leading a partnership, championing Welsh workers, working with them. Does the First Minister agree that if they're to show that they are on people's side, the emphasis has to be on the listening and not on the lecturing?

Mark Drakeford AC: I've heard three lectures this afternoon from the Member purporting to be questions. I am very grateful to the over 3,000 farmers who have taken part in the 10 consultation events that we have held on the latest proposals in just the last few weeks. I know there will be hundreds of others who have taken part in conversations through the farming unions. We are absolutely committed to that way of co-producing with the farming sector a way in which the very large sum of money that we are committed to sustain for the support of the agricultural community goes on being made available to them. The Minister is in continuous conversation with farming interests. I will meet others with her next week for this purpose. The reason we do it is because of our commitment to that sector and to devising here in Wales a way of rewarding farmers for the work that they do that is recognised by the rest of the Welsh public as vital to our collective futures.

Toxic Sites

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 3. How is the Welsh Government working with local authorities to ensure the safety of toxic sites in the south-east? OQ60715

Mark Drakeford AC: The legislation that deals with safety at such sites in Wales is set by the Senedd. The Welsh Government provides statutory guidance to assist local authorities in the discharge of their responsibilities. Further assistance is available through Public Health Wales and Natural Resources Wales.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for that answer.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: As with the map of category C and D coal tips in Wales, people also have the right to know the location of historic toxic sites. Unfortunately, there are many toxic sites throughout our country as a result of our industrial heritage and multinational corporations using us as a dumping ground for all sorts of nasty chemicals. These corporations may have long since disappeared from our communities, but the legacy of their work lingers on with polluted watercourses. Has this Government considered publishing a map of toxic sites throughout Wales to better inform the public of the dangers that may exist in their community, and when will we also get a taskforce dedicated to pulling together all the relevant agencies pursuing polluters and dealing with the legacy they have left behind?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that important question. He is right, of course, that the landscape of Wales is scattered with examples of the legacy of events that happened many, many years ago. The current system is that it is a responsibility of a local authority. They have a primary duty in this area to identify contaminated land in their area. But the work that the Minister is doing on the disused mines Bill is being designed with the possibility of extending the scope of the arrangements we will set up in the first instance in order to be able to take account of other forms of industrial legacy in the future. I hope that when the Bill comes in front of the Senedd, the Member will see that. While it begins with, as he said, the legacy of mining in Wales, there are other legacy issues that the structure that will be established could be used to respond to in the future, and that would allow us, for example, to take into account the metal mining remediation programme that we have here in Wales, where there is international interest in the way in which we have been able to extend the scope of our remediation programme. So, there isn't going to be a swift route to the sort of register that the Member suggests, but there is a potential route that will come in front of the Senedd later this year, and I'm sure Members who represent areas where these legacy issues are very prominent will want to take a close interest in the passage of that Bill.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I too share the concerns of the fellow Member for South Wales East and, for example, on the proposal to reclaim the Bedwas coal tips, which has been met with a lot of concern by constituents in my region. Although the Welsh Government has claimed the tips are not necessarily unsafe, there is a risk, of course, as you know, of run off of water that could result in an incident.
But I'd like to make the First Minister aware of the Tŷ Llwyd quarry in Ynysddu near Caerphilly, which was found to have had toxic chemicals in the water leaking from the landfill into a woodland used by children and dog walkers last year. My constituents in the area still believe that the area is still contaminated and have voiced their concerns over the health and safety risk associated with this site. The drainage system currently that is there is inadequate, and contaminated liquid is still a prevalent issue. In 2011 Monsanto agreed to help clean up the quarry, yet 13 years later, my constituents are still having to deal with that fallout. So, First Minister, how is the Welsh Government working with Natural Resources Wales to deal with this issue and clean up the quarry once and for all? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank the Member for that important question. Just to be clear that, based on current information, the regulators do not currently consider there is a risk to public health at Tŷ Llwyd, but the local authority—who, let's remember, themselves identified this quarry as a cause of concern back in the 1990s—has commissioned Arcadis to do an options appraisal to look at better ways in future in which leachate from the site can be managed. In an era of climate change—we've talked about that this afternoon already—severe weather events, including concentrated rainfall, has rendered the challenge at that site more significant than it would have been in the past. Now, I understand that the consultants have now narrowed the scope of their work down to four options for future management of the site, that that report has now been presented to the local authority, but, together with Natural Resources Wales, there is a monitoring programme going on over this winter to look at ground and surface water, which will help to further refine those options. Now, when those options are refined, I imagine myself that it will lead to the council needing to apply for an environmental permit for the way in which the site is managed in future. I would anticipate that there will be stringent conditions attached to that permit to make sure that local residents can have confidence that there isn't leachate from that site that would cause environmental and public health damage.

Hefin David AC: Bedwas tip has already been mentioned, and it is a legacy of our coal mining heritage. There is a company that is interested in remediating Bedwas tip at no cost to the public purse, and when you're talking of upwards of £30 million, that's a significant offer to be considered. There has been, unfortunately, some opposition councillors spreading, through leaflets, some direct untruths about the project. I think we need to keep an open mind about what the project will entail. We need to make sure that the proper processes are followed to ensure that the public have their say. Would the First Minister therefore support that and agree that, in order for this kind of remediation project to be considered, we have to keep an open mind about how successful it can be?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Hefin David for that, Llywydd. Laura Anne Jones mentioned the Bedwas tips, and there are three disused category D coal tips above Bedwas, and we know that, thinking of the question I was asked originally by Peredur Owen Griffiths, because the Welsh Government has put that information into the public domain. Now, my understanding is that the company proposing a different future for those tips is currently in the pre-planning application phase. I was very pleased to see that there's an exhibition at Bedwas today and Cwmfelinfach tomorrow of the proposals that they are bringing forward. They will then have to come forward with a full planning application, and at that point, if there are concerns by local residents, they will be able to be voiced and they will be able to be considered in that orderly way, rules-based way, that the planning system allows, and then the merits and the demerits, if there are any, of the proposal, can be properly investigated and reported upon.

The Heads of the Valleys Road

Vikki Howells AC: 4. Will the First Minister provide an update on the dualling of sections 5 and 6 of the A465 Heads of the Valleys road? OQ60716

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Vikki Howells for that, Llywydd. Work on dualling sections 5 and 6 of the Heads of the Valleys road is currently three years into its construction period. Despite the project starting during the height of the COVID pandemic, good progress has been maintained and the scheduled and anticipated completion is due in the summer of 2025.

Vikki Howells AC: First Minister, it was a pleasure to visit with you and Dawn Bowden to see the ongoing construction works on sections 5 and 6 of the Heads of the Valleys road last week. I'm sure, like me, you'd want to thank Future Valleys Construction and their partners for hosting us and giving us a very informative tour. It was good to hear about the economic, environmental and community benefits that the project is already delivering, but how is Welsh Government working to ensure that these approaches are embedded to deliver lasting improvements for the Cynon Valley and the surrounding areas?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Vikki Howells for that and for the invitation she made on the floor of the Senedd to make that visit, which I thoroughly enjoyed, together with the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney. It followed an earlier visit that I'd made with Alun Davies to a different part of the road, and while we made our visit, it was the words that the Member for Blaenau Gwent often uses on the floor of the Senedd that were in my mind, that this is much more than a road, it is a series of really important economic opportunities for people who live in this part of Wales.
And the benefits that we saw in front of us last week, I think, absolutely are benefits that will last into the future: those active travel measures that will now be planned, the cycle routes that we saw, the separation of pedestrians from traffic, the fact that 120,000 trees will be planted as part of the work on sections 5 and 6. We were told about the 8,000 plants that were being specially brought on in order to safeguard the future of the marsh fritillary butterfly, as well as everything else we saw to make sure that biodiversity and lapwings and bats and dormice, and all the other things that are there now, will be there guaranteed for the future. And that's without all the investment that will last into the future: £105 million in the supply chain as a result of the work on the Heads of the Valleys road. Those will be companies that will be there to thrive into the future.
And to go back to the very first question I was asked this afternoon, we heard about and met apprentices, people who will have learned their skills over the decade of investment that this Welsh Government has made in that road, and we met and heard of people who started as level 2 apprentices in the early stage and who are now in charge of some very important parts of this construction. So, I think there will be a whole series of economic and environmental legacies that this scheme will provide for those communities well into the future.

Natasha Asghar AS: First Minister, you and I both know that I'm a huge supporter of having a strong transport infrastructure across Wales. However, in this instance, your Government has not failed to surprise me. On the one hand, the Welsh Government says that there's a climate emergency and bans all major road building as part of its anti-motorist agenda—[Interruption.]—and on the other hand, we see you, the deputy tourism Minister and Vikki Howells all smiling and posing at the Heads of the Valleys for a photo op, which you just mentioned—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I can't hear the Member, sorry, and I'm not sure whether the First Minister can, so can the Member be heard in some silence, please?

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much. Now, I must say, First Minister, I am personally really, really glad to see this anti-road building Government finally recognise the benefits of investing in these really important infrastructure projects—I truly am. However, I'm not sure the fact that this scheme, which is seriously over budget and massively behind schedule, is something to celebrate. So, First Minister, given that you're hailing the Heads of the Valleys road as a success story, can the people of Wales now expect to see this Government start building other important road infrastructures now as well? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, it is a shame, Llywydd, that the Member's welcome for the scheme is shrouded in such a mist of misinformation. She's entirely wrong about the Government's approach to road building. She's entirely wrong about sections 5 and 6, which is being constructed under the mutual investment model, where the risks of cost overrun do not lie with the Government at all; they are entirely in the hands of the construction company, who has been contracted to build that part of the road. So, she can be sure that her concerns are ill-founded, and in future she will be able to celebrate the success of the road without surrounding it with a set of entirely erroneous anxieties.

The Sustainable Farming Scheme

James Evans AS: 5. Has the Welsh Government done an up-to-date impact assessment on the sustainable farming scheme? OQ60712

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, an integrated impact assessment was published on 14 December last year, as part of the current sustainable farming scheme consultation. An updated assessment, together with supporting evidence, will be published before any final decisions are made.

James Evans AS: Thank you for your answer, First Minister, and I should hope that you will do an updated impact assessment as soon as possible.
Over the last week I've visited farms, livestock markets, agricultural suppliers, and I attended the YFC drama finals in Radnor. All the people that I spoke to are worried, they're scared and they're angry because of the uncertainty around their futures. Rural mental health charities are also being inundated with calls from people who need help and support due to the huge pressures they are currently under because of unrelenting form filling, TB and a Government here that seems to ignore their concerns.
First Minister, so with the colossal 5,500 job losses, the £200 million loss to the economy and the massive reduction in livestock numbers, outlined by an impact assessment that this Government commissioned, how can farmers trust you and the rural affairs Minister when you say that you will listen to the consultation, when it seems to many that this Government ignored farmers during the co-design phase and also did not take account of the evidence that outlines the untold damage that this scheme would do to rural Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, let me begin by recognising that, when change happens, people find that challenging, and in rural Wales, there are many changes that are inevitably on their doorstep. They're there because we left the European Union, with the security and certainty that that gave to farming here in Wales. It is just unavoidable that, while we are no longer members of the arrangements that had sustained farming in Wales for so many years, we have now to put alternative schemes in place. And when change happens, people are anxious and people are worried and people are indeed distressed. I understand that. That is why we go on having the conversations that we do.
It absolutely does not help those conversations, it absolutely does not help to address the stress to which the Member referred, when he ends his question with the sort of alarmist nonsense that he offered. And I just put that point to him, because he's often quite a sensible contributor to debates on the floor of the Senedd, but if we are anxious for people and their futures, then it would be better if we all conducted those conversations in a more measured way than he did in the way that he ended his conversation, because this Government has certainly not ignored the voice of farmers. We have had a seven-year conversation. I am very grateful—I said in an earlier answer, I am very grateful—to the 12,000 responses that we had to the 'Brexit and our land' consultation as far back as 2018. I'm grateful to have over 3,000 responses to the 2019 'Sustainable Farming and our Land' consultation, to the 2,000 people who participated in the co-design exercise in the following year; 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, we have a White Paper on the Agriculture (Wales) Bill, 2022, 1,600 contributions to the second phase of co-design, and this year more than 3,000 farmers coming to the consultation exercises, the roadshows, that have been held in every part of Wales. I think they deserve better than his contribution, because their views have not been ignored, because, at every iteration, there have been amendments to the scheme, and I am confident there will be further amendments to the scheme as a result of the consultation and conversations that are currently being held.
But it is a conversation between two parties. It is a conversation between farmers, and it is a conversation between the Welsh public who provide the money that goes into the sustainable farming scheme. And in a conversation, there will be more than one point of view. That's why we carry out the conversations so carefully and over such a sustained period. It's not over and we will go on listening and go on responding, and, once again, I urge as many people as possible to take part in the opportunity that is there in front of them to influence the future of the scheme.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Can I ask you, First Minister, to put yourself in the shoes of somebody maybe who's trying to eke a living out of a family farm? You are asking them, as a Government, to make a choice: effectively, to set aside potentially 10 per cent of their land for tree cover, another 10 per cent maybe for habitat. That will squeeze what are already very fine margins in terms of the viability of that business. The alternative, of course, when you're giving them that choice, is that they don't enter a scheme and they forego the basic payment equivalent, which is what's absolutely been keeping many of those business afloat over recent years. So, my question to you is: do you get it? Do you really get what you're asking the sector to do? And I say this in as constructive a way as I can. Is that alarmist nonsense, or is that the reality that people are facing? Is it any surprise that there's utter dejection and despair out there in the country at the minute?

Mark Drakeford AC: I don't regard the point that the Member made as alarmist nonsense, because he's right that this goes to the heart of the bargain that we want to see there in the future for Welsh farming. It's why the total amount of the BPS has been sustained here in Wales and is on the table for that future scheme. We're not asking farmers to simply set aside 10 per cent of their land. We'd like to pay them to do it. We're offering them to be first in the queue to grow the trees that will be needed in the future. I remember here on the floor of the Senedd being bitterly criticised by the then leader of Plaid Cymru for the failure to grow sufficient trees here in Wales to meet the climate emergency. And the way we want to do it is to put farmers at the front of the queue, to give them first refusal on growing the trees we will need in the future, and then to reward them for it.
It is, as Llyr Gruffydd said, in the end a voluntary scheme. About half the farms in Wales today aren't part of BPS, but, because it is a voluntary scheme, we want to design that scheme together. That is an absolutely genuine offer from the Welsh Government. As I've said many times this afternoon, I am very grateful to those thousands of farmers in Wales who turn up to be part of that joint endeavour.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, First Minister. I think the language and the tone of this issue needs to be respectful on all sides. The place that we might have got ourselves to is actually not really helping anybody and affecting the mental health of those who are going to have to deal with this going forward. I was one of 500 people who attended a meeting in Brecon a couple of weeks ago where we heard about the 17 universal actions and the two schemes that are required of farmers to adhere to in order to get the basic payment. The presentation of that took around an hour and a quarter, and, in that, believe me, I was particularly confused, and I was sitting near farmers who were very distressed by what they heard. One farmer said—and it was with sadness, it really was—'I just want to farm.'
We know the consultation is ongoing, and I’m grateful to the Minister for rural affairs—I’ve had a meeting with her and I know that she has met with the Farmers' Union of Wales and the NFU only recently, because there really is sadness and distress at what farmers can see is going to be a very upsetting and stressful time ahead. I know the consultation deadline is still to come, but I wonder, in your ongoing impact assessment, whether you would look at the impact on farmers’ mental health not just of this scheme, but of all of the other requirements as well, because we need our farmers to be healthy, to be able to work on their land and to keep our communities—particularly our Welsh-speaking communities—alive and thriving. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I agree with what the Member says, but, when any community is facing change, then mental health pressures will be part of what any Government would need to respond to. When I was at Tata Steel with my colleague the economy Minister only a few weeks ago, we had a very serious conversation there with the company about the mental health impact that losing between 2,000 and 3,000 jobs in a community the size of Port Talbot will have in that community. So, wherever we see change, we are aware of that wider impact on people’s lives. It’s why we invest in mental health services, particularly, for farmers here in Wales, and have some fantastic organisations in Wales, like the DPJ Foundation, which do so much good to respond to people who face that distress.
In the quotation that the Member has offered us, you sum up, in a way, the dilemma that is there: people 'just want to farm', and I’m afraid the future isn’t like that. The future isn’t going to be just allowing people to do what they themselves have always done. Change is absolutely inevitable, and that’s what this Government is embarked upon—change that we want to carry out in a way that secures a successful future for Welsh farming. I’ve no doubt that, for some, that change will be difficult and painful, but by thinking that we solve the problem by saying we won’t have change, that we can avoid change—that isn’t an answer either. So, change is inevitable. We want that change to be brought about together with the sector. We want to go on investing in its successful future, while recognising that that will be a difficult journey for some people who see change not just as something that is peripheral to their lives, but is in some ways requiring them to think again about the whole way in which they are able to go on living on the land and to be supported to do so.

Ken Skates AC: First Minister, thank you for your clarity on this matter, but, for the avoidance of any doubt, can you confirm again that you will consider every response to the consultation thoughtfully and with great consideration, and that those responses will help to shape and to finesse a final programme of support for the farming community, and that no conclusions should be drawn at this time about that final shape of the programme?

Mark Drakeford AC: It's very important, Llywydd, as Ken Skates says, that people recognise that this continues to be a deeply iterative process. I don't think it does help the process when people portray it as a process in which no change has been made, because changes have been made at absolutely every stage in the consultation process, in the co-design process, and I'm absolutely sure that there will be further changes that emerge from the current consultation. And people ought to invest in the consultation with the confidence of knowing that their views are listened to, that there are practical things that change as a result of what we are told, and that nothing will be final in this scheme until all the responses to the current consultation have been read, considered, that a new integrated impact assessment will be carried out, and then final proposals will be brought in front of the Senedd.

Renewable Energy

Paul Davies AC: 6. What is the Welsh Government doing to support the renewable energy sector in Preseli Pembrokeshire? OQ60681

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the sector in the Member's constituency has huge potential to meet our energy needs while retaining wealth and value in Wales. We are streamlining planning and consenting processes, leading strategic work on energy plans and working to maximise the potential for new technologies, including floating offshore wind.

Paul Davies AC: I'm grateful to you for that answer, First Minister. Now, you'll be aware of the Fit 4 Offshore Renewables programme, which is delivered by the Offshore Renewable Energy Catapult, in partnership with Floventis Energy, the developer of Llŷr 1 and 2 in the Celtic sea. Now, the programme helps businesses bid for work in the floating offshore wind sector by giving Welsh businesses the skills and expertise to deliver success in this rapidly growing industry. So, First Minister, will you join with me in welcoming the programme and the investment made by Floventis in the supply chain? And can you tell us what the Welsh Government is specifically doing to build on this work and support Welsh businesses in the renewable energy sector for the future?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question and for the clear and consistent support that he gives to this sector, which will do so much to help people in his part of Wales. Maybe I'll give just one example of a very recent action, because I wrote yesterday to the Prime Minister to support the UK Government's intention to give the Crown Estate the ability to borrow against the assets that it holds, particularly in central London. This is a commitment that the UK Government has made, and yesterday I wrote to the Prime Minister both to support that, but to urge him as well to bring that very small piece of legislation in front of the House of Commons as rapidly as possible. Because one of the things that the Crown Estate impressed upon me and the Minister for Climate Change, when we both participated in the potential bidders event in Swansea on 31 January, was that if they were able to borrow against those assets, then they would use some of that to invest in the supply chain here in Wales, in just the way that Paul Davies has described the actions of Floventis.
Now, the Crown Estate recognise that, if we are to make maximum use of the opportunity that is there in the Celtic sea, we will need to prepare a supply chain in advance of that development, ready to be able to do the job we wanted to do in Wales to retain those jobs here. I think they're a willing partner in that. I think the UK Government's commitment to allow them to borrow is a good one, and the Welsh Government will certainly support them in bringing forward that legislation.

Unpaid Carers

Jayne Bryant AC: 7. Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government’s commitment to supporting unpaid carers? OQ60717

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government remains committed to supporting all unpaid carers in Wales, ensuring that they are aware of their rights, as outlined in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. Since January 2022, we have allocated £42 million of additional funding to support unpaid carers.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Prif Weinidog. I'd like to welcome that additional funding in this area as well. Yesterday, the Wales carers assembly was held in Tŷ Hywel here in the Senedd. Organised by Carers Wales, the event was attended by unpaid carers from across the country. I'd like to put on record my thanks to those unpaid carers, who raised many important questions throughout the day, including on health, social care and employment.
I joined a panel discussion focusing on how carers balance employment and caring responsibilities. Striking this balance is very difficult for many unpaid carers, and it has a significant impact on their mental health and well-being, as well as individual and family finances. Prif Weinidog, what is the Welsh Government doing to support carers of any age, whether to stay in work, return to work, or to pursue new employment opportunities and continue to care for their loved ones?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Jayne Bryant for that, and for the part she played in yesterday's event. I know it was addressed by the Deputy Minister with responsibility for services for unpaid carers. And the panel that the Member for Newport West took part in, Llywydd, I thought was a particularly important part of the programme. We talk about 'unpaid carers': they're unpaid for the care they do, but they're often working at the same time. And in an economy that has fewer people now working in it than prior to 2016, we know we have to do more to enable people who would like to be in the workforce, but are prevented by their domestic circumstances from being able to make that contribution. And that focus on the economically inactive, as they're rather inelegantly called, is a really important priority for the Minister for Economy.
So, you can be sure that, across the Welsh Government, we are looking for ways in which we can make it easier for people who are not currently in the productive economy, but who would like to be, to be able to make that participation. And people who have caring responsibilities are very much part of that. It will rely, we know, on employers recognising the adjustments that they need to make in the workplace in order to be able to attract those people who are often skilful, experienced, and have a great deal to offer, given the opportunity to do so.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: —question 8, Mark Isherwood.

People who Suffer from Migraines

Mark Isherwood AC: 8. How is the Welsh Government supporting people who suffer from migraines? OQ60691

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd. An all-Wales toolkit was launched in June of last year, to support clinicians in diagnosing and caring for people with different types of headaches, including migraines. The toolkit was co-produced by the membership of the neurological conditions implementation group, including the Wales Neurological Alliance.

Mark Isherwood AC: Last month, I co-sponsored a migraine awareness event here in the Senedd with Jayne Bryant MS and Luke Fletcher MS. Migraine is a common condition affecting one in seven adults, and one in 10 children across the UK—around 10 million people, including 450,000 in Wales. Migraine remains a debilitating condition, but basic misunderstanding of the reality of it means that migraine is often dismissed as, quote, 'just a headache'.
The Migraine Trust have recommended steps that can be taken to improve migraine care in Wales, incorporating a number specifically relating to the planning and needs assessment responsibilities of local health boards, including, reviews of the migraine needs of local populations; ensuring optimal pathways are implemented; increasing the availability of headache specialists; developing and rolling out training and resources for GPs; ensuring that all guidance for healthcare professionals is updated; strengthening the role of pharmacy within primary care for migraine; and public awareness campaigns and resources.
So, what action is the Welsh Government planning, if any, to address these issues raised here last month and to meet the needs of people with migraine in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank the Member for that question, and congratulate all Members across the Chamber who took part in that migraine awareness event. The purpose of the all-Wales toolkit is to respond to a number of the practical suggestions that Mark Isherwood just raised on behalf of those who work in this area, because it is essentially to do with improving the way in which primary care clinicians are able to identify and respond to people who suffer from the debilitating condition that a migraine is for so many people.
At the other end of the spectrum, we recognise that there is a need for more specialist support for those people whose migraines are of a particularly debilitating sort. We expect the appointment of a national clinical lead for neurological conditions very soon, and I hope that, as part of their work, they will look at how we can both strengthen that front end of the health service, where most people will continue to get their care, while also strengthening the very specialist end of the care spectrum for those people whose conditions need more than a primary care response would be able to mobilise.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be the business statement and announcement. The Trefnydd to make that statement, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There is one change to today's agenda. The statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services on special measures at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, one year on, has been brought forward from next week to today. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out in the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers, available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: Trefnydd, can I call for a statement from the relevant Minister on Welsh Government support for public conveniences, please? We know how important public conveniences are. Access to loos is really important, particularly for older people and people who might have some sort of disability, and, indeed, people who might need to use them as a changing room or as a baby-changing facility. But, unfortunately, the facts are that over half of our public conveniences have closed since the 2010s, and, unfortunately, even though we had an opportunity to address this issue with the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017 that we passed as a Senedd a number of years ago, there still isn't a legal obligation on local authorities to ensure that they have a sufficient network of public conveniences; they're simply required to report on what they have.
So, can I call for a statement from the Deputy Minister with responsibility for public health, to ensure that this is an issue that the Welsh Government shines a spotlight onto? And in that statement, can we have an understanding as to whether the Welsh Government could pick this issue up again and put some statutory obligations in place on local authorities, to make sure that there are minimum access requirements? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think the Member raises a very important point, for the reasons he highlighted. Whilst of course it is a matter for local authorities where public toilets are placed, and obviously funded, I think it's really important that the work continues that I know many local authorities have done to ensure that, where there are public toilets—whether that be in a shop or a restaurant—they're able to be used in the absence of toilets that, as you say, have been closed, unfortunately, mainly due to budget pressures.

Heledd Fychan AS: Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for two statement, please. First, you'll be aware, I'm sure, that we've all had a number of e-mails from members of unions in the National Library of Wales and Amgueddfa Cymru, conveying concerns about cuts, but specifically in terms of the safety of the national collections. I'd like to ask for a statement from the Deputy Minister, outlining how she is ensuring the safety of these collections in the face of these cuts.
Also, could we have a statement from the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, updating us on the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 and what's happening following the review? A number of councils are consulting in terms of changes to their school transport provision, which is a cause of concern for a number of parents and pupils. Naturally, we need clarity in terms of what's happening with the travel Measure, and I'd be grateful if the Government could outline a timetable in order to progress this work.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. In relation to your first request, I know the Deputy Minister is currently working with the library to ensure what you set out, and I know her officials are also in discussions. I will certainly ask the Deputy Minister for Climate Change to bring forward a written statement in relation to the learner travel Measure.

Paul Davies AC: Trefnydd, can I request a statement from the climate change Minister regarding the effectiveness of Natural Resources Wales and the Welsh Government's position on the management of landfill sites in Wales? There is an ongoing issue in my constituency at Withyhedge landfill site, where, over the last few months, residents have had to endure severe odours coming from it. I've contacted Natural Resources Wales, asking them to look into the matter with urgency, and to take enforcement action against Resources Management UK Ltd, who own the site. Unfortunately, residents are continuing to suffer as a result of these terrible odours, and they are understandably very angry, upset and dismayed. Given the huge impact on their lives, residents are now calling for this company's licence to be withdrawn. The people who own the company and operate the site already have direct access to Government Ministers, and have even donated money to one of them. And so, this should already be on the Government's radar, and I hope that there will be some intervention to support the residents who are affected by this awful problem.
I'm sure you'd agree with me that this is totally unacceptable, and so, therefore, I'd be grateful if a statement could be forthcoming as quickly as possible, to provide some support to the communities affected, and ensure that Natural Resources Wales is being effective in undertaking its regulatory and enforcement duties.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm unclear as to whether you've had a response from Natural Resources Wales, but I would think that that's the most important thing at the moment. Perhaps you could write to the Minister for Climate Change, who can ensure that you do get a response as a matter of urgency.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Storm Babet, of course, struck back in October, and Conwy County Borough Council, amongst others, were left with huge clean-up costs—in Conwy's case, up to £1.5 million or £1.4 million. Now, whilst the council has notified the Welsh Government that they'll be seeking support through the emergency financial assistance scheme, or EFAS, to give its acronym, there is, of course, a threshold of just over £0.5 million that the authority themselves have to meet initially. However, the council—and it's not unique to Conwy, other councils are facing this dilemma as well—are still awaiting confirmation from the Welsh Government, and the finance Minister in particular, as to whether you will open EFAS for applications from local authorities. If it isn't opened, of course, then the whole £1.4 million cost will fall on the shoulders of Conwy council, increasing their forecast overspend and adding significant risk to their budget for next year and the council's ongoing resilience. So, can we have from the finance Minister a statement, giving urgent clarity to local authorities as to whether and, if so, when she will open EFAS for applications?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, the Welsh Government does have a very strong record of supporting our local authorities, when, unfortunately, flooding has occurred. I know that the Minister for Finance and Local Government is aware of the request. She's currently considering it, and will inform the local authorities once a decision has been taken in the very near future.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I'd like to request a statement from the Minister for Climate Change, please, regarding building and fire safety, because the suffering for many residents in high-rise buildings goes on, particularly in light of the recently announced Redrow and Barratt merger. It's been 12 months now since the Welsh Government and developers' contract was signed, and, sadly, remediation payments are painfully slow. A merger of this magnitude, with an expected £90 million in cost savings, may absorb substantial management focus and further delay remediation efforts.
Additionally, given the special governance measures put in place for the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, and the concerning statements from the Welsh Government about the service's failures to learn the lessons of the Grenfell Tower fire, residents deserve renewed confirmation, as soon as possible, that building safety continues to be prioritised through this transitional period. So, I wonder if we could have a statement from the Minister on how the Welsh Government plans to ensure that fire safety still remains a top priority for those residents. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, in respect of the developers' obligations, there's no need to amend or enter a new contract with the developers as a result of the merger that you referred to. The definition of 'participant developer group company' was sufficiently wide, when it was brought forward a year ago, to capture the changes that have been brought about by a merger. And I know the Minister for Climate Change's officials will continue to meet with representatives of the developers concerned in the coming weeks to discuss any practical impacts.

Gareth Davies AS: I would like to call for a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services this afternoon on the availability of hydrotherapy treatment within Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. The Minister has outlined previously that the health board can use local community resources, but I have heard from patients who have received a referral that there are often delays and a lack of community resources available, with many in need of reinvestment. The closest hydrotherapy pool for my constituents is in Bangor, and the hydrotherapy pool at the Glan Clwyd Hospital was closed back in 2014, with no plans, as far as I am aware, to open a new hydrotherapy facility.The use of hydrotherapy is highly effective in alleviating pain for those suffering from rheumatism and a plethora of orthopaedic and musculoskeletal conditions. Therefore, hydrotherapy and physiotherapy are effective in reducing pressure on other NHS services.
Could the Trefnydd outline whether the Welsh Government has assessed or, at least, considered the possibility of opening a new hydrotherapy pool within the physiotherapy department at Glan Clwyd Hospital? And what is the Minister doing to improve the relationship between the health board and community resources, to ensure that when a referral is made the patient does actually receive the treatment they need?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, the issue you raise is not a matter for the Minister for Health and Social Services. It's absolutely a matter for Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. So, I'd urge you to write to the chair.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: May I ask for two statements, please? First, a statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language on how we can enforce the place name regulations for Wales. In the light of opening the new bridge over the Dyfi river, new signs have been placed referring to Aberdyfi with the old spelling. However, the old spelling has long since vanished, and, according to the standardised Welsh place names, Aberdyfi with the original spelling is the standardised spelling. So, how has the Government been able to place a new sign that is incorrect? So, I wonder if we can have a statement from the Minister as to how he intends to ensure that standardised place names in Wales are respected.
Secondly, can we have an oral statement in this Chamber on the announcement by the health Minister last week on education and training for professional healthcare workers? The written statement raises a number of questions. It talks of funding, yes, but how many placements for students will this mean, how many people will be funded, how many people were consulted on this statement, and who did the Minister consult with? So, there are a number of questions arising from this, and I'd be grateful for the opportunity of an oral statement here in order to raise those issues directly with the Minister. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. In relation to your first request, I would suggest that you write directly to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language about the point you raised about the sign that has been installed in relation to Aberdyfi.
With regard to the second request, the Minister for Health and Social Services, every year, announces funding for professional training. It's done on an annual basis, and the written statement clearly set out what would be expected, what would be brought forward and the funding, and I presume that will be worked up as we go through the year. If you have anything specific, again, the Minister is in her place and is asking for you to write to her directly.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Business Minister, I'd like to request a statement from the education Minister. Since 2011, the number of teachers of the deaf has fallen by 20 per cent—one in five teachers. It is expected that, in the next 10 years, one in three teachers will retire. If no further action is taken, it will get to a point where there are no teachers of the deaf left here in Wales. So, deaf children will be left unsupported and we will have another preventable crisis in education on our hands. I would like to hear what the education Minister is doing, in the form of a statement, please, to encourage more teachers to take on that extra two years of training to become teachers of the deaf. As I'm sure you'll agree, business Minister, all children, including those with hearing impairments, should be able to enjoy the same standard of education as everybody else. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I would absolutely agree with your final point. The point you raise, really, is part of the workforce planning that the education sector here in Wales undertakes.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. I'd like to—. Is this—?

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: This is the business statement.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: On the—.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: This is the business statement, Janet Finch-Saunders, the second item on the agenda.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: On the Betsi board.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I don't think you're ready to ask your question.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: No, I am.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: No, no—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I am ready. I've got it here, my contribution.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: So, why didn't you ask it? Why were you consulting with your fellow Member to ask her what was happening? Ask your question.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Okay. I'd like to just raise a concern about the way that Arriva Bus Wales have completely cut off a village in my constituency, the ward being Penrhyn-side. They did it without warning, leaving about 450 or 500 people completely, now, feeling that they're in social isolation. It's a very steep village on the side of Nant-y-gamar mountain. Frankly, I've written to the Minister, but I would like a statement, because this isn't just happening in my constituency or in this area, and they're just literally pulling the service without any consultation with elected members, without any consultation with residents and affected travellers. So, it is something that I feel really passionately about.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. This is a matter for Arriva. It's not a matter for the Deputy Minister, and I suggest you write to the chief executive of Arriva.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip: Anniversary of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine and Nation of Sanctuary update

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be a statement by the Minister for Social Justice: the anniversary of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine and nation of sanctuary update. The Minister to make the statement—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. The twenty-fourth of February marks the second anniversary of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine by Putin. Since that time, more than 7,500 Ukrainians have been forced to relocate to Wales, with millions more displaced across Europe. This week is a grim milestone for Ukrainians everywhere, but we are determined to show our continued solidarity. Though the war is long, as President Zelenskyy said in the early days of the invasion,
'light will win over darkness'.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Jane Hutt AC: To symbolise this, we will be lighting up some Government buildings in Cardiff this week, and tomorrow evening I will be speaking at an event sponsored by Mick Antoniw MS, here at the Senedd. This is a landmark visit to the UK by front-line medics from Ukraine, including those who have been held in Russian captivity, who are touring the UK alongside a bombed-out ambulance. The event will shine a light on the barbarism of targeting medical facilities—a war crime.
Mick Antoniw MS has also recently returned from a visit to Ukraine with a team of volunteers, transporting much-needed supplies provided by Welsh communities. Our support for Ukrainians here in Wales is unwavering. On a recent visit to the Safe Haven project in Maesteg,I saw the importance of the welcome offered to Ukrainians. I was moved by a powerful speech from a school student who spoke of the history of the conflict and the support opportunities she has received. I would like to thank the host families who have welcomed Ukrainian guests into their homes across Wales.
For months I have been seeking commitments from the UK Government for extensions to visas or a right to settlement. And I was pleased to see an announcement yesterday that those with Ukraine schemes visas will be able to extend their right to remain in the UK for a further 18 months. The period of extension is not quite what we had hoped for, and there is still no right to settlement, but I know many Ukrainians in Wales will value the certainty of knowing that another 18 months in Wales is achievable. We know many will not have homes to return to at the end of that period and we will continue to work for a compassionate and person-centred approach in months and years ahead.
There are clearly many finer details of the extension arrangements that need to be worked through and answers communicated to Ukrainians in our communities. The UK Government also introduced many changes to the immigration rules relating to existing Ukraine schemes yesterday afternoon, but we need some time to understand their likely impact in Wales. We will continue to engage with the Home Office to ensure the Ukraine schemes are fit for purpose and the actions Ukrainians need to take are fully understood and supported.
For supersponsor beneficiaries who have travelled and taken up our offer of initial accommodation, we continue to make great progress in supporting people to move to longer term accommodation across Wales and beyond where Ukrainians can continue to settle amongst our communities. There are now fewer than 90 individuals remaining across three initial accommodation sites, and we are working closely with local authorities to support these remaining households to move on, including through our transitional accommodation capital programme. We remain on course to close our initial accommodation sites entirely during 2024. Our team Wales approach, with all local authorities and third sector partners pulling together to support Ukrainians to move on across Wales, facilitated by the national move-on taskforce operated by Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council, has been critical to this success. Over 2,000 guests have now been supported into longer term accommodation within the last year, enabling us to close 28 initial accommodation venues. Not only have we been able to support hundreds of households to successfully settle within our local communities, but we have also significantly reduced our anticipated initial accommodation budget at a time of severe financial pressures.
Despite these successes, we have also had to grapple with some acute challenges in supporting sanctuary seekers in recent months. In particular, the Home Office’s drive to eliminate their legacy backlog of asylum claims led to a large increase in homeless refugees in the run-up to Christmas. As a result of the Nationality and Borders Act 2022 and Illegal Migration Act 2023, we have two other asylum backlogs operating for those arriving since each Act was passed, despite claims to have solved these issues.
We are currently experiencing a crisis in the availability of immigration legal advice, which will have knock-on homelessness, destitution and exploitation impacts in our communities if not addressed. We have repeatedly asked the UK Government to use its powers to ensure sufficient legal aid is available in Wales, but it has so far declined to act. The legal aid system is a reserved matter and we are reliant upon the UK Government to take the necessary actions to prevent the collapse of this sector. But we are exploring limited Welsh Government actions we could take and are continuing to call upon the UK Government to recognise the impact of a failure to act.
Working with the Welsh Local Government Association and our local authority partners, we've recently introduced new governance arrangements to underpin our team Wales approach. This includes the establishment of a nation of sanctuary strategic oversight board, which I co-chair with the WLGA’s spokesperson on housing. Members include local authority leaders, representatives from our wider public sector services, third sector partners and representatives from the Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities. We've also established a nation of sanctuary partnership board to ensure engagement at senior official level across all our partners. Whilst the asylum system is a UK Government responsibility, this board provides an important platform to try to work with them to deliver an effective system that supports local communities and sanctuary seekers. We will continue to help them deliver their asylum dispersal plan and highlight issues where they arise, recognising that it is clearly the responsibility of the UK Government to ensure that the dispersal plan is implemented.
Dirprwy Lywydd, Wales is a nation of sanctuary. We are proud to offer people fleeing war, conflict and abuse a place of refuge, safety and sanctuary in Wales. We've been overwhelmed by the generosity of people across Wales who've opened their homes to people fleeing the awful conflict in Ukraine. But Wales has also welcomed people fleeing Afghanistan, Syria and Hong Kong. Being a nation of sanctuary in Wales means supporting everyone who comes to Wales to play a full part in our communities and economy. Wales needs migration to maintain and grow our population and to support businesses and the public sector. Migration keeps our communities vibrant and helps our economy thrive. Diolch.

Mark Isherwood AC: Russia is a country that is a magnificent country, and its people deserve so much better than Vladimir Putin and his fascist gang. With the anniversary of Putin's illegal invasion of Ukraine next Saturday approaching, and with his barbarous attempts to silence democratic opposition of recent days, we must remember that Putin is not only an international war criminal and mass murderer, but a despicable little man and vile tyrant.
I'm sure the Minister will agree that a huge gratitude is owed to the people of Ukraine for defending the front line of western freedoms on both sides of the Atlantic and beyond. Questioning you here last June, I noted that, in responding to your previous statements on both Ukraine and nation of sanctuary, I had repeatedly raised the issue of housing and proposed modular housing as part of the solution, as across the water in Ireland. You'd previously referred to the need to remove our Ukrainian guests into longer term accommodation, some of which is modular accommodation developed across Wales. So, what, if any, specific allocation is being provided for refugees?
I also noted that, then, the £150 million fund to help Ukrainians into their own homes had been formally announced by the UK Government, with £8 million for Wales, and asked you to confirm how this would be allocated and whether it would be distributed by the Welsh Government and/or to councils to help Ukrainian families into private rented accommodation and find work, as in England. In your response, you stated that 936 additional properties were funded under the transitional accommodation capital programme 'for this year and into next year'—i.e. this year—and it's a range of accommodation solutions across Wales, not just modular housing, but bringing void or mothballed properties back into use, converting buildings, demolition and new build as well. Given that almost 90,000 households in Wales are on social housing waiting lists at present, how many properties have now been funded through the transitional accommodation capital programme, how many of these have been allocated for Ukrainian or other refugees, and how many additional homes, including new builds and new modular housing, have been delivered to meet the needs of Ukrainian and other refugees in Wales? Given that the UK has offered or extended sanctuary to more than 238,000 Ukrainians, how many of these are now in Wales, and is Wales taking its fair share, where England houses 16 asylum seekers for every 10,000 people, but Wales takes just nine? What action will you be taking to address this, if any?
When I last visited Mold Jobcentre Plus, as I previously referred, I learned about the great work they were doing supporting Ukrainians keen to work and contribute. In this context, can you provide an update on English for speakers of other languages courses, ESOL, and on the transferability of their qualifications to Wales?
The Wales free bus travel scheme for refugees, the welcome ticket, which commenced on 26 March 2022 and will continue until 31 March 2024 with arrangements for after then being considered, provides eligible persons with free unlimited travel on all local bus services across Wales, including those that operate into England where their journey starts and finishes in Wales, with exclusions only applying to National Express and Stagecoach Megabus services. What is now planned for after 31 March? I e-mailed you at the weekend on behalf of constituents hosting their second family from Ukraine, and I thank you for your holding response. The driver on the bus service through their village, provided by Townlynx based in Holywell, told them that he would take their Ukrainian guests this time, but that they wouldn't be allowed on again. How did the Welsh Government, therefore, commission the free bus travel scheme for refugees and what action can or will you take in such circumstances?
As you indicated, yesterday the UK Government announced an 18-month visa extension scheme for Ukrainians who sought sanctuary in the UK following Russia's illegal invasion, meaning that they will now be able to stay in the UK until September 2026. Those in the UK under the Homes for Ukraine scheme, the Ukraine family scheme, or Ukraine extension scheme will be eligible to apply for the extension within the last three months of an existing visa. Although the Ukraine family scheme is being closed, Ukrainian nationals who would've qualified under this will still be able to apply to Homes for Ukraine, and families settled here can still sponsor a family member to come to the UK under Homes for Ukraine. How will these changes impact on Welsh Government planning, and what action are you taking to meet this extended need, both at Welsh Government level and through engagement with the UK Government? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Mark Isherwood. I concur with you fully on your words about the barbarism of Putin and, as is, I think, reflected across this Chamber, the great gratitude in recognition of the bravery, courage and strength of the people of Ukraine for their ongoing courage to fight and resist Putin's invasion of their nation. It is important that we are making this statement here together today. They are important questions that you raise about how we have supported. Two years ago, we were here just to express together our shame and horror at Putin's invasion and recognise, also, the courage of those people in Russia who are now also standing up against Putin, taking great risks with their lives. We know that there are so many civilians in that position.
But what have we done? It is time to acknowledge and take account of what's happened and how Wales and, as you say, the people of Wales and its institutions, local government, third sector, churches, mosques, and how everyone has responded. Just, again, to repeat, we've welcomed over 7,400 Ukrainians under the Homes for Ukraine scheme to the UK, including almost 3,300 under our supersponsor route, and it is important that that's on the record today. We've helped over 2,600 people move through our initial accommodation, those welcome centres, across the whole of Wales, and I've mentioned the fact that we're going to move to closing the last few welcome centres this year. So, we have to thank, again, our key partners supporting us to help those 2,600 people from those welcome centres, that initial accommodation, into longer term accommodation—the team Wales approach. And I've already acknowledged the role, of course, of the people of Wales who offered their hearts and homes, kindness and commitment as hosts. I think that's something where, again, we are looking at some of the detail of the announcements.
I met with the UK Government Minister alongside the Scottish Government Minister, the Deputy Minister for Northern Ireland and the Minister for Northern Ireland. It was so good that we were all meeting together last week to discuss these announcements that were coming forward. But we raised questions about whether, for example, thankyou payments can continue—these are details that we need to look at, because we also want to support those hosts who are still coming forward. And just to say, in terms of our welcome centres, I mentioned that we've only got 90 guests left in our welcome centres because of the success of the move-on. At the peak of the project, there were over 1,900 guests in more than 40 venues across Wales, and many of you will have visited those venues.
Just to follow up your question about the accommodation that's been used, the transitional accommodation capital programme, in the first year, provided £76.4 million to local authorities and registered social landlords to bring forward 936 homes. It is now open for new applications in this financial year, and we'll continue to work with RSLs and local authorities to deliver more homes. It includes a range of projects: bringing empty properties back into use, remodelling and conversion of existing buildings, the modular buildings that many will have seen in their own constituencies, and also recognising that, actually, these are homes for people in temporary accommodation, including those being resettled from Syria, Afghanistan and Ukraine.
You've mentioned employment and ESOL. It's key to supporting our Ukrainian guests to move into their own accommodation and gain independence. And, of course, the skills that Ukrainian guests have brought to Wales are much needed, and also their desire to improve their English, fitting lessons around work and studying commitments. I just wanted to share that over 600 Ukrainians in Wales have signed up to STEP Ukraine, which is an intensive virtual 12-week English language and employment programme for Ukrainians in the UK.
As far as the welcome ticket is concerned, we are pleased we've been able to provide the welcome ticket free public transport scheme for two years. Changes to the way the bus industry is funded means that we are considering alternative methods of delivering support in the future. We are making these decisions now and will communicate these fully as those discussions are concluded. Thank you for contacting me at the weekend, Mark, giving me an account of a disappointing and upsetting incident. There have been these incidents where people who are seeking sanctuary have either being wrongly denied travel or feel that they have been unfairly treated. In any case where this happens we will look into the circumstances and work with the travel operator. It's the travel operator's responsibility, but we will look to the travel operator responsible to try to rectify matters.
Just finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, it is important that we look at what is going to happen with the Ukraine schemes' future. They are important schemes, and I hope I will be able to update Members. We only just got the details yesterday. There are questions to be clarified so that those forthcoming arrangements will support safe and legal routes, and, obviously, we're working very closely with the Home Office on this matter. There's a new permission extension scheme to enable Ukrainians in Wales to plan a little further ahead and reduce anxiety about where they will be from March 2025 onwards. But what we have said is applications for extension of visa must be free, must be low cost, they must be simple and not need legal advice. They mustn't be left on a cliff edge in terms of their status. So, that is something that we're clarifying. But, of course, closing the Ukraine family scheme, reducing the period of leave to remain for Homes for Ukraine visas to 18 months instead of 36 months, are major changes, and ending the opportunities for chain sponsorship. These issues we have been seeking clarifications on. And, also, just in terms of our own schemes, our understanding is that the changes announced by the UK Government don't prevent anyone issued with a supersponsor visa from travelling to the UK if they've not done so already.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you for the statement, Minister.

Sioned Williams AS: It's a terrible anniversary that we are marking today: two years since Ukraine's lands were illegally invaded, its cities bombed and people driven from their homes in terror. We have rightly condemned the illegal and barbaric actions of Putin and have played our part in helping support refugees from this conflict find sanctuary and refuge in Wales. Wales has been praised for its humanitarian response, the supersponsor scheme, the involvement of our local authorities and national organisations likeUrdd Gobaith Cymru, a shining beacon in the darkness of these last two years of war and displacement. I’d like to place on record Plaid Cymru’s thanks to all those in Wales who have helped and who are helping our Ukrainian brothers and sisters in their time of need.
The contrast of the international response to the war in Ukraine to the ongoing attack of the Israeli Government on Gaza is one that must be highlighted in this context, because you’ve said, Minister, that Wales as a nation of sanctuary must support all of those needing sanctuary, fleeing war. Therefore, do you agree that the state of the United Kingdom, of which we’re a part, should not be selective in its support or solidarity for victims of war and displaced people? Because Palestine has the longest unsettled refugee crisis in recent history, a crisis that is almost now beyond horrific adjectives. As the Ukrainian people do, they want nothing more than to return to their houses, their classrooms, their businesses, much of which have been obliterated by the bombs of an aggressor. The people of Gaza have not in the main had the same ability to flee the bombs and the bullets and the degradation inflicted upon them, and even if they could have found their way out of what the United Nations Secretary General has called a humanitarian nightmare, they would not have been granted a specific legal immigration route to get here.
Plaid Cymru’s leader Rhun ap Iorwerth and Westminster leader Liz Saville-Roberts have both pressed on the UK Government to reinstate funding for the UN Relief and Works Agency, which has provided crucial support to millions of Palestinian refugees, calling the suspension of support by the UK Government a moral and strategic error. Does the Welsh Government support this call? What conversations have you been having with the UK Government on ensuring support for those displaced by the war in Gaza and facing this humanitarian catastrophe? And now that it seems your Labour colleagues in Westminster are finally beginning to understand that a pause in the fighting is not sufficient, will you as a Government make the call for an immediate ceasefire yourselves, given your righteous condemnation of the actions of Putin and the plight of the people of Ukraine?
Powers are, of course, reserved over immigration matters, as you said, and the ongoing support provided to all those who have been forced to leave their homes and seek refuge in Wales is limited by Westminster. So, although you’re obviously seeking clarification, do you agree it’s disgraceful that the Tory Westminster Government have announced that they will be stopping Ukrainians from joining family members in Wales without warning? What message do you think this sends to those who have lost everything and to whom we want to and should offer sanctuary from war? Do you agree that there should be an end to these kinds of ad hoc policies like this and ensure Government introduces a global scheme that gives the same rights, including family reunification, to everybody needing it, regardless of nationality?
Plaid Cymru has received concerns from Welsh local authorities and also the Welsh Refugee Council concerning the long-term planning for the scheme meant to support Ukrainian refugees. With the UK Government ending their thankyou support payment in April next year, hosts in Wales will no longer receive the financial support that they need to continue their wonderful hosting of Ukrainian refugees. The payments, of course, acted also as an incentive to encourage people to become hosts. So, how is the Welsh Government addressing this risk that Ukrainian families will be forced to find their own accommodation and perhaps face homelessness, adding to an already huge pressure on housing and homelessness services, which seriously underfunded local authorities are already trying to deal with? Will you be expecting local authorities to undertake the same duties with fewer resources, especially given the proposed cut in the budget for support for Ukrainian refugees?
And finally, in the ‘Nation of Sanctuary—Refugee and Asylum Seeker Plan’ progress report recently published, work to ensure homelessness prevention strategies in the four dispersal areas take account of the vulnerability of new refugees to homelessness was marked as amber. Can you outline what action is being taken to address that? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Sioned Williams. Yes, as you say, it's a terrible anniversary that we mark today. Again, I thank you for recognising the widespread humanitarian response in Wales that we’ve seen. It’s good again to put on the record remembering the role of the Urdd as one of the first welcome centres. And of course, I would also like to thank the Urdd for the work that they did in responding to the Afghan evacuation, those fleeing from the Taliban, and how we saw that response here on our doorstep, with the Urdd opening their doors to Afghan children and families. And I do want to say, just on that point, that Wales has now welcomed over 800 people from Afghanistan and work continues to increase this further. And I think Welsh local authorities again must be recognised and must be praised for the amazing outcome in successfully moving on most Afghan families from UK Government-procured hotels. In August of last year, we visited—well, over the course, that was nearly two years—hotels and worked with local authorities to have that amazing move-on. And particularly recognising Cardiff and Vale of Glamorgan councils, as well as all the others who supported their move-on, working tirelessly to reduce the number of families who had been made homeless. As, of course, we were working with those families who came from Syria and supporting them as well.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, yes, you have obviously reflected on wider issues of world conflict, which are important to us in terms of our international relations and understanding and our global responsibilities and citizenship. What we have to see is that in terms of—. The fact is, it's a humanitarian crisis that we see in Gaza. Too many civilians, including women and children, losing their lives. And we must get greater aid into Gaza—and, most importantly, the safe return of hostages and supporting British nationals. So, I mean, this is something, where—. Again, this links us not just to the nation of sanctuary, but to community cohesion, and we have stood with and met with Jewish and Muslim communities since the conflict began, and we continue to speak with Muslim and Jewish communities to see what assistance that we can provide.
It is important that we get clarity of the issues that you raise in terms of the future of the Ukrainian scheme. I've already said that we've made a number of calls, as I did at the inter-ministerial group last week. We need to ensure the proposed arrangements so that Ukrainian people, our neighbours, our guests, have the information and the advice that they need, because it is going to be a major change, closing the Ukraine family scheme—. It was really important, the family scheme, at the early stage of the invasion, but, actually, applications have now run their course and we've asked the Home Office to take learning from this scheme into their other family reunion schemes. And reducing the period of leave to remain under Homes for Ukraine—it appears concerning, but we have been told all Homes for Ukraine visa holders will be eligible for the permission extension scheme. So, this would grant 18 months, followed by a further 18 months. And it's important that visa holders are able to apply earlier for an extension to prevent difficulties in securing tenancies or jobs, which is, of course, as we've said, the ways in which there's been such settlement and integration as a result of our guests coming to Wales.
I've mentioned the supersponsor scheme; we're working to confirm urgently that no-one will be prevented if they have a supersponsor visa from travelling to the UK. And I've also mentioned earlier on the importance of the 'thank you' payments to be available for the hosts of those who extend their visas and for them to understand how the application processes work.
I think it is important that we look at this in the wider context, at ways in which we are trying to engage, as we seek to do, with the UK Government, working most closely with our local authorities in terms of grappling—and it is grappling—with the asylum policy. The UK Government has a hostile environment strategy. We have pressed for sufficient safe and legal routes for asylum seekers to claim asylum from outside the UK, and, of course, this would negate the need for perilous journeys and disrupt the people smugglers, but what we need to do is ensure that quicker asylum decisions are made, but they must not lead to homelessness and destitution, which actually happened when the backlog was being reduced. But we must also ensure that our team Wales approach works to effect the most important need to welcome sanctuary seekers from across the world. But we do know that this requires us to work closely together to ensure that we can, with our local authorities, and that's why the strategic partnership board I mentioned will be so important. We've got a real important—. We've gone on an important journey together in terms of welcoming Syrian, Afghan and now Ukrainian refugees. Today we are focusing on those Ukrainian guests, thinking of their circumstances, their lives, their families, the families they've left behind, their loved ones at war and loved ones lost, the homes that they've lost, and ensuring that we can continue to ensure that that welcome is here in Wales.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Minister, thank you very much for your statement today. Two years may have passed since the predatory Russian invasion of Ukraine, but the threat to democracy and the values that we all here in this Chamber hold dear in Wales and the west has also greatly increased and not diminished. As Finland joins the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and the middle east almost reaches the top to boiling point, we witness the shocking death of Putin's greatest threat to a Russian spring. Just today, we have seen Yulia Navalnaya's X—formerly known as Twitter—account suspended, just a day after she used the platform to continue her husband's lifelong campaigning for free and fair elections and a democratic Russia, and that will never be silenced.
In your statement, Minister, you rightly commend the work of our colleague and friend, Mick Antoniw, who has vividly brought the Ukrainian invasion and conflict home to the people of Wales, with regular visits to Ukraine and with volunteers transporting supplies donated by Welsh communities. The danger, though, that these conflicts present to democracy and democracies reverberates across the world, and the geopolitical faults are widening as western and Russian allies coalesce around the middle east. Bearing in mind, then, the increasing call for further sanctions against Russia and this Senedd's limited jurisdiction and mandate and as a nation of sanctuary, how, then, do you envisage, Minister, the Welsh Government support for the people of Ukraine developing throughout 2024? And with the withdrawing of UK-Ukraine family schemes, what further moves do you hope to see from the UK Government to show solidarity for the cause of freedom and democracy?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Rhianon Passmore. I'm glad you've also widened this to reflect on the situation with the horrific death of Alexei Navalny and to recognise Putin is there, Putin is responsible, and also to acknowledge the huge courage and bravery of Yulia Navalnaya. I just want to comment on a piece that was written about Alexei at the weekend by Odessa Rae, when she said,
'He spent the last 15 years of his life working through his foundation in the hope of dethroning Putin from his authoritarian regime. I know he would urge that mission, and his message to Russia would be to not become something of the past but something that is continued in some way—that they do not, in the words of Dylan Thomas, go quietly into the night.'
And I think it is important that we reflect on that today, as we look at the impact of this with a global perspective and recognise that that's why we must supportUkrainian people.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and grateful also to the Minister for her statement this afternoon. I think it is important that we join together to recognise the courage of the people of Ukraine, who have been withstanding Putin's invasion for two years now. I would also like to pay tribute to the leadership that the Minister has shown during that time, but also to the leadership of Mick Antoniw, who was last week in Ukraine delivering more materials, support and aid to the people who are on the front lines, and I think we should all across the Chamber recognise the work that Mick has undertaken in this period.
The two years of horrific violence against Ukraine by Putin, of course—it's impossible not also to reflect, as has already been done, on the murder of Alexei Navalny last week, murdered by Putin. He couldn't break him, so he killed him, and I think that demonstrates the nature of the regime that the people of Ukraine are fighting against. I was disappointed to hear yesterday that UK Government has closed the Ukraine family visa scheme without any warning at all. It would be useful, Minister, if the Welsh Government could speak urgently to UK Ministers to ensure that all people who require sanctuary in Wales and the United Kingdom are able to access that support without any hesitation or without delay. Also reducing the length of visas from 36 months to 18 months is very difficult for some families, and I think we need to take that on.
And, finally, Minister, in your discussions with the UK Government, I also think it's important that we recognise what Ukraine requires in order to continue the fight for democracy. What we've seen over the last few weeks is Ukrainian forces being pushed back by the power and strength of Russian forces who have greater arms and greater access to manpower. Ukraine does need the support of western allies, but it also needs missiles. It needs rockets, it needs shells and other munitions in order to defeat the Russian invasion. Warm words from politicians are worth nothing on the front lines of Donetsk and eastern Ukraine at the moment. We need to ensure that they have the arms and the munitions to defeat the Russian invasion.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Alun Davies. It is important that we stand up to Putin. We can all stand up to Putin—we are today—and to the aggression of Putin and his forces. And this is why marking the courage and the strength of the Ukrainian cause is so important today in terms of this anniversary. And it is also why we have to ensure that these changes are robust and that they do enable Ukrainians to not only stay here, those who fled that conflict, but that others can also come here. And, of course, I would extend that to other refugees in other parts of the world who we've supported, like our refugees from Afghanistan and Syria.
I have said that I am asking the Home Office to learn from the Ukraine family scheme and recognise the impact it has had, because I think one point, and I think Mark Isherwood raised this, is that we've had this chain sponsorship that's been used to unite families here in Wales. I raised this. We're concerned about the loss of this element for Homes for Ukraine, because it enabled families to unite. We have asked the UK Government to work with them on alternative routes to support family reunion. We know that families are separated and they continue to be separated. So, we seek to look at that as well.
And also, I think there is a point, and I've raised this regularly, that some Ukrainians want a route to settlement in Wales. Many won't have homes to return to in Ukraine. We do continue to push for this, but, obviously, offering a route to settlement—we have to do this in partnership and with the understanding of our Ukrainian friends and Government. We know that the Ukrainian Government will need most of their citizens to return to help to rebuild in time. An extension scheme is a pragmatic step forward. We asked for two years—18 months. But how it is delivered and how it's managed—now, you can certainly be holding me to account, and this Government, in terms of how we take this forward in the way that you describe.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I now call on Mick Antoniw to make a brief contribution to the statement.

Mick Antoniw AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm very grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this statement as we approach the second anniversary of the illegal invasion of Ukraine. So, three days ago, I returned from Kyiv delivering three vehicles and supplies on behalf of the Senedd cross-party group supporting Ukraine. So, I particularly want to thank Alun Davies for his work on this group, and his support for the delivery of the material support, including driving thousands of miles across Europe to Pavlohrad in eastern Ukraine. Support so far has amounted to 15 vehicles delivered, and supplies with an estimated value of around £1 million. I also recognise the considerable support from the National Union of Mineworkers, Welsh trade unions and branches, companies such as Alcumus in Nantgarw and Highadmit in Talbot Green, and many individuals and groups who have supported this work. And I also recognise the support from Welsh veterans and Welsh-based groups such as UK for UA, a fantastic Welsh group who are on their forty-eighth—their forty-eighth—delivery of material aid to Ukraine. In Kyiv, we met with members of the miners' unions, volunteers and front-line soldiers. There was an absolute determination in Ukraine to win the war with Russia because there is no alternative. It is a war against Russian fascism. It is a war Ukraine and the democratic world must win. The alternative for Ukrainians is the deportation of children to add to the estimated 80,000 children already stolen, the systematic rape, torture, execution, mass deportation of population, Russification and destruction of the Ukrainian language, culture and identity. This is happening already in occupied parts of Ukraine.
It was expected that Ukraine would collapse within a week, and it didn't. Ukraine has forced a Black sea fleet out of the Black sea despite not even having a navy. Grain exports have been restored. Russia has lost an estimated 380,000 soldiers, but has little regard for the lives of its citizens, most of whom come from ethnic minorities within the Russian Federation. But it has been replenished with considerable supplies of weapons and ammunition from North Korea and Iran. So, the war is now in a perilous situation. The lack of long-range missiles and ammunition, the paralysis of support from America, the failure of Nato so far to deliver the level of ammunition promised encourages Putin and puts victory at risk. There remains much more the UK Government can do and should do.
Failure to defeat Putin will destabilise the whole of Europe. Moldova, Georgia, the Baltic countries and others are all under threat. The murder of Navalny in Russia, murders on UK shores and in other parts of the world, are a return to the Stalinist tactics of the past. The world must now unite to defeat Putin, and, for those who say we cannot afford the cost, I'd say that we cannot afford not to. There will be a long-term price for failure for every citizen in the UK and Europe if he is not stopped, for generations to come. As ever, I and the Ukrainian communities in Wales that made their home in Wales, welcome and appreciate the ongoing support from the Welsh and from the UK Governments, and, in particular, from the people of Wales. Ukraine must now be given the weapons and support necessary to win and end the war. And as we learnt from history in 1938, you cannot appease fascism. Слава Україні! Героям слава! Перемогам!

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mick, and thank you, Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Special measures at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board—One year on

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 4 today is a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: special measures at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board—one year on. And I call on the Minister to make the statement. Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Next week will mark 12 months since I placed Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board into special measures. Today, I want to take the opportunity to reflect on the last year and to share with you how the health board, despite the ongoing pressures, continues to deliver day in, day out in a really positive way for the vast majority of people in north Wales.
It’s worth remembering that the health board is the biggest employer in Wales, employing over 20,000 people, serving a population of around 700,000 people, carrying out an average of around 16,000 patient contacts, over 2,000 patient appointments, and around 450 planned procedures every single day. So, I want to acknowledge the excellent work of everyone who works in the health board, and thank them for everything they do to ensure patients are seen and treated safely, compassionately and in a timely manner.
I also want to highlight just a couple of examples of some of the innovations the health board has introduced over the last 12 months. These include becoming the first in the United Kingdom to use artificial intelligence to diagnose breast and prostate cancer. I was also pleased to help launch the new e-prescribing service at a pharmacy in Rhyl back in November, as part of an all-Wales roll-out.
Dirprwy Lywydd, it has been a challenging year for the health board, but I do think the difficult decision to put it into special measures was the right one. And that is because this board is now in a much better position to drive substantial change and improve health services for the people of north Wales.
So, what have we done? Firstly, there has been a focus on rebuilding and stabilising the board. There is now a permanent chair, chief executive and vice chair. The final four independent members will be announced very soon, and this will give the organisation the stability and focus it needs in order to improve. I was pleased to see that Audit Wales recognised a marked improvement in terms of board stability in its recent follow-up report on board effectiveness, and that the dysfunctionality within the board described in its previous report is no longer evident.
As part of the special measures intervention, a small number of independent advisers were contracted to work with the board, and a number of independent reviews have been commissioned into problem areas. Dirprwy Lywydd, I must say that many of the reflections from the advisers, and the reports from the independent reviews, make uncomfortable reading and have exposed some very serious issues that the health board must now address. While it has been encouraging to hear about the improvements that Healthcare Inspectorate Wales has observed through its more recent inspections, Members will be aware that His Majesty’s coroners and the ombudsman have highlighted a number of consistent themes, and I hope the health board has now uncovered all of the key issues that need to be addressed and has structures in place to address these issues.
Audit Wales has also, over the last year, reported on poor financial management and accounting practices. I've discussed these with Members of the Senedd on a number of occasions, and you are all aware that I am unable to comment further as disciplinary processes are still ongoing. But the recent Audit Wales report suggests that the board is responding to the issues identified in their audits of the 2021-22 and 2022-23 accounts, as well as those identified in the Ernst & Young review. It's also worth noting that North Wales Police has decided not to take any further action on the findings of the Ernst & Young report.
Like all other health boards in Wales, Betsi faces significant financial challenges as a result of inflation and austerity measures. We're actively monitoring the health board’s response to these challenges.

Eluned Morgan AC: All of this is key to changing the culture within the health board and its organisation. But the key question is: what difference is this making for people living in north Wales? Well, they should take comfort from the fact that performance in the board is improving. The health board has reported a 65 per cent reduction in the number of people waiting more than three years for their treatment to begin, between February and November 2023. The number of those waiting over 52 weeks for their first out-patient appointment has fallen by over 15 per cent in the same period. Also, there has been a 33 per cent reduction in the number of people waiting over eight weeks for their diagnostic tests. I do appreciate that people are still waiting too long, but things are moving in the right direction.
In November 2022, a few months before the health board was put into special measures, I made an unannounced visit to Abergele Hospital. That day, a Thursday afternoon, there was no orthopaedic activity going on. This was despite the fact that Betsi had one of the longest orthopaedic waiting times in Wales. Now, I was both surprised and disappointed to find that the management team and the board were unaware of the lack of activity, showing their lack of grasp of the situation. But, today, thanks to a great deal of support from the Getting It Right First Time team, the Welsh Government and the new board, we are now seeing far more activity on that site.
Waiting times for orthopaedic pathways have improved across the health board. In November, the number of patients waiting over 104 weeks was at its lowest level since April 2021. And we expect to see this positive progress continue, as the construction of the new orthopaedic hub in Llandudnowill be completed by the end of this year.
Pressures in urgent and emergency care continue. Between February and December 2023, there was an increase of over 2,000 monthly attendances at emergency departments in north Wales. Focusing on eliminating four-hour handovers is resulting in some improvements. In December 2023, there were 786 handover delays in excess of four hours. Although this is still too high, it does represent a 23 per cent reduction compared to the previous year.
There's been a great deal of talk about the challenges facing the vascular service. I have visited the department on many occasions to monitor progress, and I was pleased to see, in June of last year, that Healthcare Inspectorate Wales de-escalated them from a service requiring significant improvement to a lower status. An independent assessment against the vascular plan by the NHS executive vascular clinical network concluded that the service has improved and now provides a much safer service. To give further reassurance, a vascular case note assessment is in place. The final report is expected in March of this year.
So, what next? The health board has been in special measures for 12 months, and there is still a lot to do. Last year, I set out a series of sustainability conditions for the board, which are still valid and will need to be met before a de-escalation to level 4 can be considered. And, over the next few months, I will publish escalation criteria for each area.
Without doubt, the health board faces significant challenges, but it is important that we collectively support the board to develop and build a sustainable organisation, capable of delivering the services that the people of north Wales deserve. Thank you.

Darren Millar AC: Can I thank you, Minister, for your statement? You'll appreciate that it's a very sobering reminder of the dire situation in the health service in north Wales. It's another year for residents in north Wales with their health board being in special measures, and, of course, it's spent all but two of the last nine years in special measures in north Wales—the longest of any NHS organisation in the whole of the United Kingdom; not an accolade that I want to celebrate, or anybody wants to celebrate.
I do want to put on record the thanks of my constituents and me and the rest of the Welsh Conservatives group to those hard-working staff who work hard day in, day out. But I won't be thanking every employee of the health board, because we know that, unfortunately, some of those employees are still failing people in north Wales. Some of them are former executives that are still in the NHS and ought not to be, frankly. And, for that reason, I won't extend my thanks, unlike you, to everybody at the health board in north Wales.
There are many people, of course, who are experiencing significant delays in their treatment. There was a briefing that was circulated to Members of the Senedd from north Wales yesterday, by the chair and chief executive of the health board, celebrating the fact that they'd eradicated six-year waits in north Wales for treatments. Six-year waits, can you believe it? So, up until fairly recently, there were people in north Wales still waiting six years for their treatment. In that report as well, it told us that there were still many people in north Wales—hundreds, in fact—waiting for over three years for not just treatment, but for their very first out-patient appointment.We hear a lot of talk about the two-year focus in this Chamber, but what about the three-year focus that some of my constituents are having to face in north Wales? It is truly shocking. And, frankly, we need more regular access to information on this, or else these issues are not going to be dealt with appropriately. I'd like to know how many people are waiting five years, four years, three years, two years, one year, and the rest, because that is the sort of transparency that we need to see.
The other thing in the report, which you didn't completely refer to in your statement today, but the other thing in the information shared by the health board yesterday was that 10 reviews have been undertaken—10 reviews into services, with recommendations. We haven't seen one of them published. Where do we go to see what those reviews are? You've made reference to reviews finding all sorts of horrors that people need to get to grips with today; I haven't seen any of these reviews, nor has anybody else in this Chamber, nor, more importantly, have the public, who pay for these services and have a right to know how those services are performing.So, in spite of the progress that you like to report, I'm afraid I'm still very concerned, and I'd like to see some transparency from this Government so that we can have confidence in the system.
You made reference to the fact that the coroners' reports and the ombudsman's are regularly raising concerns about treatment in north Wales. You said, in addition, that North Wales Police have decided not to take any further action on the findings of the Ernst & Young report into accounting irregularities, but we know that there are still people suspended, we know that there were findings of false accounting, we know that there were individuals, including in the NHS Wales Shared Services Partnership, who were covering up documents and circumventing the proper governance arrangements around the letting of contracts. Frankly, it's shocking that not one single person appears to have been sacked as a result of those failings in the organisation.
You made reference to Llandudno. I'm very pleased to see that Llandudno is going to be getting an orthopaedic hub. Of course, most of that activity at the moment, or a great proportion of it, is being undertaken in Abergele, at Abergele Hospital, which you said that you visited some time ago and were shocked to find that not all of the beds were occupied. I too was shocked just a few weeks ago, when I visited, and just one bed was occupied in that hospital. And my staff were shocked as well, this weekend, when they went to visit a member of their family and just two beds were occupied in that whole hospital. That does not seem as though you're sweating the resources to get rid of those overly long orthopaedic waits in the way that we need to. So, I do not accept your complacency on that front.
You talked about the problems we're having in emergency care. Of course we're having problems in emergency care in north Wales, because we know that we need a new minor injuries unit in Rhyl, which you haven't bothered building in spite of the fact that it was promised 10 years ago. So, can you give us an update on that too?
And then, finally, if I may, there was a patient safety report attached to some board papers that were recently published. It has been reported in the media today that one of the things that that report highlighted was concern about oxygen administration for patients, with staff not correctly connecting oxygen supply and that having catastrophic consequences for some patients. And it wasn't just one isolated incident, there have been further patient incidents as well. Can you tell us what action is being taken to ensure that those things do not happen? And can you tell us also what the actual outcome was? What was the catastrophic outcome? Have people died? Have people lost cognitive ability as a result of this lack of oxygen? We need to know, and I think the public deserves to know. In addition, that report—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: No, you've done a lot of questions and I've been very flexible. We've got more Members to ask questions and we have got quite a few going.

Darren Millar AC: I appreciate that. This is the final question.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And short please, Darren.

Darren Millar AC: It is. That report also makes reference to an audit of urology services, in which a search of offices was undertaken and they found, and I quote
'100+ radiology reports, internal referrals, histology reports andtertiary centre letters have been identified that have not been reviewed or actioned',
over 300 of them in total, with referrals going back to March 2023 that have not been triaged. And one final point here, on this—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Darren, you are pushing it. Darren, please, I think you need to ask the question.

Darren Millar AC: I appreciate that time is of the essence, but a minute's worth of time in order to hold the Minister to account for the failings in north Wales surely is appropriate. This is the one—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Darren. Darren. No, I'll stop you here. You've had six minutes in which you've had—

Darren Millar AC: I have.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: —an opportunity to put questions to the Minister.

Darren Millar AC: And I've tabled many questions.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You've spent a lot of time because you want to make points. One final question, please, and it must be a question, or I'll close it.

Darren Millar AC: It is a question. They also identified that there was a backlog of 1,133 letters dictated by clinicians that have not been issued. Now, can I ask you, Minister, why is it that when constituents of mine, and I, and other Members in this Chamber representing north Wales, have made countless complaints about urology services in recent years, that that has been allowed to happen while this organisation is in special measures, because it's unacceptable?

Eluned Morgan AC: Wel, diolch yn fawr. I did make it very clear that there is still a long way to go in relation to Betsi, and we're only in year 1, and actually there has been, I think, quite a long road travelled in the right direction, but I make no apology on behalf of the board that they recognise that there is a long way to go.
Just when it comes to staffing in the health board, obviously this is something that is a decision for the board, and I do think it's important that we're absolutely clear about accountability here, because there does seem to be, once again, confusion about where accountability lies. I set out the parameters for what is expected to be delivered, but then I pass on that responsibility to the health board. Now, clearly, when they're under special measures, we have a far more vigilant approach in terms of what they need to deliver, but it is still the responsibility of the health board to deliver and not the responsibility of the health Minister in the Welsh Government.
Now, just when it comes to disciplinary processes, obviously I can't comment on some of the ones that are still ongoing, which is very frustrating, but that is the situation, that the disciplinary processes in relation to some of the financial issues are still ongoing, I'm afraid, and we do have to follow due process.
When it comes to performance, you're absolutely right that there is still a long way to go. The fact is that I am monitoring this incredibly carefully. I have fortnightly meetings to monitor waiting lists in Wales; I know exactly how many people are on what lists, in what health boards, so I am monitoring it in absolute fine detail. I think it's really important that, actually, the fact that those waiting lists, the longest waiting lists, have come down not just in Betsi, but the whole of Wales, have come down, is because of that absolute focus that I and the Welsh Government have put on that.
Just in terms of reviews, I think, certainly, there's more transparency, and an example of the transparency is the fact that you mentioned the issues relating to oxygen administration. The fact that the health board is being open about it and transparent is a big shift from where we've seen things in the past. The health board have confirmed that they're investigating one catastrophic outcome related to no flow of oxygen, but I'm unable to give any more detail than that included in the report due to the confidentiality concerns.
When it comes to urology, the health board have identified administrative processes that resulted in information not being shared between specialities and GPs in a timely manner, and work has already taken place to review this information to ensure it's still appropriate in every case. Any patients affected by this are, I understand, being contacted.
When it comes to the situation in relation to pressures, I get frustrated as well when I see beds that are empty, but, actually, having lots of beds full all the time is not a prize. I think we've got to be clear about the fact that, actually, I'm very unapologetic about the fact that I would like to see more care happening within the community. The fact is we've got significantly—significantly—more beds per head of population than they do in England, and also—[Interruption.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: One minute, Minister. Darren, I would like to hear the Minister's response, and you're continually trying to speak over her, so please let the Minister respond to the many questions you raised in over the time you had. Minister.

Eluned Morgan AC: If you look at what GIRFT recommends—the Getting It Right First Time experts in the field—what they say is, actually, we should be doing far more day-case surgery. So, it's a sign of success if you've got fewer patients, because it means that they're being more efficient in terms of their day-case surgery.
And then, just when it comes to the Royal Alexandra Hospital, the health board have decided that they wish to review their proposals for this site, and they're doing that in partnership with local authorities. I believe that the plans will include a minor injuries unit, intermediate care beds and integrated care, and I'm waiting for a new proposal that I can consider.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I'll be as brief as possible. Betsi Cadwaladr is my health board, and my loved ones are reliant on the workforce there to support and heal them in periods of ill health. And let's be clear: the workforce there are dedicated people and they do excellent work in very difficult circumstances. And that's why the disappointment about the board's failures is so much greater, because it's not just the patients who are being let down, but also the workforce. But it would be unfair to say that this was only a board failure. It is also a failure on the part of this Government and previous Governments: a failure in failing to identify the weaknesses earlier; a failure in failing to tackle the weaknesses when they emerged; and a failure in failing to put a clear programme in place to improve the situation when needed.
The Government, of course, is happy to blame Westminster for failing to fund Wales adequately. This is of course true, but the evidence shows that this Government is not lifting a finger to try and secure a better financial settlement, and it's unlikely that the Starmer Government will provide financial fairness for Wales. But the truth in the case of the north Wales health board, as with the health service as a whole, in all honesty, is that there is a much deeper problem here that needs to be tackled. And that is not a financial problem, but as I have pointed out here many times, it's a cultural problem.
I therefore welcome the recent report by the auditor general showing that progress has been made over the last 12 months since the board was once again placed in special measures, but this, of course, reflects the folly of the Government's decision to move the board out of special measures in the first place. But one swallow doesn’t make a summer, and it's clear to me that these structural weaknesses remain; the gulf between the board and the workforce on the ground remains. This dates back to the original restructuring, and a series of chief executives have failed to address this fundamental weakness.
But before doing anything fundamental, you have to have an entire board in place. So, I wonder whether the Minister can tell us when she expects all appointments to have been made to the board. This instability that there has been at board level, involving not only the independent members but chief officers as well, has led to a lack of accountability and a failure to take responsibility. We have seen senior members being brought in to work there without any understanding of the area and being unwilling to even put down any roots in the area. The constant change in managers that has taken place at Betsi Cadwaladr—this incessant churn—has contributed to the sense of instability in the board and has created an unclear picture in terms of the lines of accountability.
What's frightening is that, as far as I know, neither the Government nor the Minister have set any criteria for de-escalation. What is the strategy for improving the situation, and how can the board know that they are moving in the right direction without those criteria for de-escalation? So, I would be grateful to the Minister if she could set out clearly for us today what the criteria are for de-escalation, so that the board can put a strategy in place. Furthermore, will the Minister commit to stating who will contribute to the decision to de-escalate and who will make that final decision? After all, we don't want to end up in the same place as we were before, with the Government taking the board out of special measures due to political imperatives and against the advice of specialist bodies.
Finally, of course, there are constant pressures on the board, such as waiting lists, the rurality of the region, demographics and so forth, which are proving to be challenging. But I would like to know what the Minister's vision is for health service provision for north Wales. What does the Minister believe are the challenges and the needs of people in north Wales? What work has she done to identify these, and in identifying them, to put the right benchmarks in place in order to achieve that vision, so that the board knows which actions need to be taken in order to improve the service? I wonder whether the Minister could enlighten us on that. Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. You're quite right to focus on the fact that the workforce in Betsi is crucially important, and they are there to ensure that healthcare is provided to the people living in north Wales. There are over 20,000 people working for the health board, which in itself means that it touches upon all aspects of society.
The previous board had struggled to get a grip of the situation. I think that's a fair comment. The fact that the current board has taken a different path, that the atmosphere has changed, that people don't fear speaking out any longer—. I think that cultural problem that previously existed—. There is still a long way to go, but I do think that we are on the right track in that regard. I know that compassionate leadership is crucially important, and I know that people are coming in to provide training for the board in that area.
I know that Plaid Cymru is always interested in talking about restructuring. What I want to see is that we focus on what's important to people on the ground, and I think what they want to see is improved performance and they want to ensure that everything is safe.
In terms of what's happening in terms of the board, there are four people still to be appointed as independent members to the board. I am waiting for those recommendations to arrive in my inbox, and I expect that to happen over the next few days. Then, hopefully, that will mean that we are in a position to have a full complement in terms of the board.

Eluned Morgan AC: I think it's probably worth setting out that there have been lots of very new appointments to key positions. We've got a new chief executive, of course, but there is also a new interim finance director, a new interim executive director of operations, a new interim chief of staff, a new interim executive director of public health. There have been changes made to the office of the board's secretary, and there's a new director of corporate governance who is going to start in April. It sounds like lots of those are interim, but this is a necessary first step. We need to stabilise the ship, get people in place. Obviously, we have to go through a formal process to now make sure that those interim appointments go through the correct process.
In terms of what the de-escalation conditions are, we set out the sustainability conditions, and that was referenced in the oral statement that I made previously. These include things like setting out strategic vision, integrated performance and quality, culture change, structures and delivery, effective and functioning board, a responsive organisation, a learning and improving organisation, stronger leadership and engagement, programme management, clinical leadership, strengthened clinical services, improved access, outcomes and experience.
What's going to happen now is that I'm going to supplement those sustainability conditions with clear de-escalation conditions in the coming months, but I want to do that with the board so we all are agreed on what is necessary to do. And then, of course, we'll go to the normal approach, which is the tripartite approach. HIW, AW and the Welsh Government will make recommendations, and I will determine when is the correct time for people to come out. Thank you.

Jack Sargeant AC: Minister, thank you for your statement this afternoon. It’s one year on since the return of the health board to special measures, and residents in Alyn and Deeside, and in north Wales, understandably want to see the change on the ground. However important the changes at the top are, at board level—and they are crucially important, as you’ve described—they mean less to them than how easy is it to get a GP’s appointment, how easy is it to get a dental appointment, or how long they and their loved ones are waiting on the list for treatment. So, with that in mind, what more can you update the Chamber on with regard to the progress on those issues, the issues on the ground? And also, can you reassure us again today that the priorities of my constituents and myself remain the priorities of you and the Welsh Government? Diolch.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. I think you're absolutely right—it's all very well that we need to change the culture at the top, we need to change the organisation, but, actually, what is it that matters to the public? What they want is access on time to a service that they require. That’s why I’m really pleased that, actually, in terms of general practice, not just in Betsi but across Wales, what we have now is a new approach to access to GPs—and let’s not forget that 90 per cent of people access the NHS via primary care and GPs.
Ninety-one per cent of practices in north Wales were achieving 100 per cent of access standards by 31 March last year, so I think that is something that is commendable. So, things are improving. You may have noticed—I’ve certainly noticed in my postbag—that the volume of complaints in relation to GP access has come down significantly. There is still a way to go. Eight per cent of practices even in north Wales still need to comply with that. We’re building on investment in digital infrastructure and there's additional investment in staff resources across the whole of Wales. So, I’m hopeful that that 8 a.m. bottleneck has gone.
In terms of recruitment, we’ve got to make sure we focus on recruitment of GPs to those surgeries. I’m very pleased that a recruitment campaign meant that Wrexham and Flintshire have seen a number of posts being offered to five clinical lead GPs and 18 salaried GPs recently. So, things are improving there, and I think that’s encouraging more to come to Wrexham and Flintshire. I think the introduction of permanent salaried GPs will provide that important continuity of care that your constituents are keen to see.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I just want to put on record that I stand by every single word that my colleague Darren Millar has said today. As north Wales Members, and for me as the Member for Aberconwy, not only do we read the very negative reports that have come from some shocking stuff; I had to raise only the other week about dirty suction equipment, and that was in a report from well over a year ago. Of course, now it has gone back into special measures. We were all very much of the opinion, ‘Will anything change?’; I have to be honest, I have seen a difference in terms of engagement, but it’s a little too little, really.
I want to put on record my thanks to the new chair that has been appointed—rather than interim, he's now the chair—Dyfed Edwards, because he has been absolutely excellent. When we get an emergency situation that we get no response from, he responds and he acts, and we get results. But it shouldn’t be the chairman’s role to automatically have to do this. There should be a mechanism that works within the board.
I’ve got patients now who’ve been waiting four years for orthopaedics. The chief exec told me herself six weeks ago that AS1 and AS2 uncomplicated cases—people who haven’t got other issues, who just need the orthopaedic operation—would be dealt with now very quickly in Abergele, but I haven’t seen any improvement to the numbers of patients that I have waiting.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: You need to ask your question now, Janet.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: So if you could just comment on that. But I want to record my thanks to Dyfed Edwards. Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I'd like to put on record my thanks to Dyfed Edwards as well. I think he's shown real leadership in what is a very difficult situation. He's made it clear that he's there to listen and he's engaging with communities, and there's a real difference, I think, in the way that he's communicating with the public. So, I would like to add my thanks to Dyfed Edwards, and the rest of the board as well. I meet with Dyfed regularly—I have monthly meetings with him; I had the latest one this morning—just to monitor progress, just to make sure if there's anything else that we can do to help. Because he has got to take responsibility, he's still in charge, but I am there to stand by him, if he needs that.
The other thing, just in relation to orthopaedics—I know you're delighted to see that development in Llandudno—is that orthopaedic waits are reducing. We have seen an improvement in the over 36 week, over 52 week, over 104 week and over 156 week waits, and we have, since February, seen a 15 per cent reduction in the number of outpatients waiting over 52 weeks for a first appointment. So, things are improving. I think it's really important to recognise that, because people are working really hard, they're trying to turn this ship around, and it's really important to give praise where that is merited.

Sam Rowlands AS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement today. Minister, you referenced, in your statement, the report from Audit Wales, which came out last week, and you referenced it in responses today as well. It did make for a sobering read and it shows there's still much to do. While there is a level of improvement, there's much, much more to be done to give the people I represent in north Wales the health service that they deserve.
The report talks of fundamental challenges that still face the health board, and you referenced some of these in your response to Mabon ap Gwynfor a moment ago. There are references to substantive appointments, the need for a cohesive and unified board, the need to deal with personnel issues. This, to me, points to significant issues within the management structure that still haven't been fully fixed. Granted, it does take time, but we are a year down the track.
In amongst all of this, in the bigger picture of things, there are real people—patients, a stretched workforce, residents that I'm elected to represent. They've been waiting a long time for these issues to be fixed—not just this past year, but for years and years beforehand. So, I wonder, Minister, if you have a date in mind as to when you expect to be satisfied that my residents have the right level of access to healthcare in my region.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I think you're right to draw attention to the fact that the Audit Wales report recognised that there are still challenges, but I think it's really important that they also recognise that substantial change has been made and the board is in a far more stable position. They concluded that the dysfunctionality within the board, which was described in the previous report, is no longer evident, and that working relationships amongst senior leaders are far more positive. It hasn't made any new recommendations to the health board, because it felt that the actions that were still needed are already included in the overall improvement plans that the health board has already got in place.
I think it is important also to set out that the vast majority of people in north Wales are getting a really good service, and we mustn't lose sight of that. I just quoted to you the statistics in terms of access to GPs. Those are stunning statistics, and I think it's really important, because 90 per cent of people get their access to the NHS via those initial contacts with GPs and primary care. I'm not saying that all is perfect—it's far from perfect. There is a long way to go. There's a huge need to drive up that improvement in performance, in quality and in safety, and those are the things that I've asked them to really focus on.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Minister, on the 12-month anniversary of you placing Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board back into special measures, and, indeed, the changes to the structure and the personnel of the board.
You briefly mentioned in your statement sustainability conditions that the health board will need to meet in order to achieve a de-escalation to level 4, which I can only assume is a move away from special measures if improvements are made in the future. So, can you describe, Minister, the specific, qualifying criteria that Betsi Cadwaladr will have to display and meet in order to eventually exit special measures in a way that is safe, sustainable and in the best interests of patients and the 20,000 people that the health board employ across north Wales? And I understand, obviously, the complexities and the logistical issues in coming out of special measures, but surely that has to be the goal and the overarching ambition here? We need to see a timeline of events because we've had enough of the scandal and the perennial crises. It's time for tangible action, delivery and results, and as you say in your statement, Minister, it's what the people of north Wales deserve.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, I think I covered some of that answer in response to Mabon, which was the listing of the sustainability conditions that I've already set out: strategic vision, performance and quality and culture change. So, there was a long list that I read out earlier. But what I have also said is that I'm going to be supplementing that sustainability condition with a clear de-escalation condition that I will agree with the health board in the next few months. So, that is coming. We're not ready for it yet, and what I'm not going to do is to give you any random date for when the board is going to come out of special measures. That is not the approach that we're taking. They will come out of special measures when they're ready to come out of special measures, not before.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Minister.

5. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being: The Mental Health and Well-being and Suicide and Self-Harm Prevention Strategies

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 5 is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being: the mental health and well-being and suicide and self-harm prevention strategies. And I call on the Deputy Minister, Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Deputy Llywydd.Today I am delighted to launch the mental health and well-being strategy, and our new suicide and self-harm prevention strategy for consultation. The strategies aim to build upon 'Together for Mental Health' and 'Talk to me 2'. The previous strategies have been a catalyst for a cross-Government and multi-agency approach to mental health and suicide and self-harm prevention. The consultation documents published today set out our commitment to develop this further, with partners, as part of a whole-system approach to protect, improve and provide support for mental health, and to reduce suicide and self-harm in Wales.
The strategies are the result of significant engagement. Listening to people affected by the issues in each strategy has been fundamental. The pre-consultation survey alone included over 250 responses. We have worked with a series of reference groups including our national mental health partnership board, the Wales Alliance for Mental Health, our minority ethnic mental health task and finish group, our national service user and carer forum and our suicide and self-harm prevention drafting group. We have also worked with the youth stakeholder group and the Welsh Youth Parliament, and the 'Young Minds Matter' report has helped shape the strategies. I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this process so far. This has been a genuine partnership and co-production approach.
Importantly, the consultation documents have a clear focus on tackling inequalities in access and outcomes. The Senedd Cymru Health and Social Care Committee inquiry, 'Connecting the dots: tackling mental health inequalities in Wales' covered this issue in depth, highlighting those in the population that have the greatest risk of mental health inequality and how different groups and communities experience this inequality, and it made a number of recommendations that have informed the development of the strategies.
Both strategies recognise the critical role of other ministerial portfolios to tackle the wider determinants of mental health and to prevent suicide and self-harm. My officials have worked with officials across Government to ensure key areas of work are reflected in the new strategies.
The mental health and well-being strategy is a joint health and social care strategy to reflect the responsibilities of both to provide mental health support. I have also convened a new joint ministerial board to oversee the strategies, and the Deputy Minister for Social Services has agreed to be vice-chair. That board will meet for the first time this week.

Lynne Neagle AC: A key theme in our engagement so far is not to medicalise mental health. Mental health has become a term that is used to describe a wide range of circumstances. We want to see a shift in how we talk about and support mental health issues to better reflect the needs of individuals. The majority of people who we might define as having a mental health issue do need support, but don’t need specialised mental health services. For those that need specialised mental health services, we have also been clear about how we intend to strengthen these further. The strategies are a first step to work with stakeholders to reset the language around mental health and well-being.
The two strategies are separate but interconnected. This approach recognises that suicide and self-harm are not diagnosable mental health conditions and that many people who die by suicide are not known to mental health services. There is also a prevailing misconception that people who die by suicide have a mental illness, and it is vital that we challenge this perception to remove the stigma and support people who need it.
Our draft strategies have each been developed around two high-level visions. The mental health and well-being strategy aims for people in Wales to live in communities that promote, support and empower them to improve their mental health and well-being, and be free from stigma and discrimination. We will take a rights-based approach to ensuring that everyone has the best mental health possible.
There will be a connected system of support across health, social care, third sector and wider, where people can access the right service at the right time and in the right place. Care and support will be person centred, compassionate and recovery focused, with an emphasis on improving quality, safety and access. Care and support will be delivered by a workforce that feels supported and has the capacity, competence and confidence to meet people’s needs.
Our suicide and self-harm prevention strategy aims for people in Wales to live in communities that are free from the fear and stigma associated with suicide and self-harm, and are empowered and supported to both seek and offer help when it is needed.
All available modelling suggests mental health demands will continue to increase. Without continued cross-Government and multi-agency support, as set out in these strategies, the NHS is likely to become overwhelmed. We have invested to ensure there is new and dedicated support for mental health services, and for suicide and self-harm prevention, in the NHS executive. This resource will be critical to provide the central drive and support to improve the quality, safety and accessibility of mental health services. This will ensure that we continue to develop services, building on recent transformation of services through the implementation of '111 press 2' for mental health.
Of course, we recognise the unprecedented financial pressures that we are facing, and the strategies aim to provide direction to services and partners to ensure value-based targeting of resources, rather than set out a list of new funding commitments. On the basis that we expect significant engagement from similar groups of stakeholders, we are proposing a 16-week consultation period. This provides another opportunity to further explore the issues people are facing in Wales, which are leading to poor mental health and well-being, self-harm and, in the most tragic cases, suicide. This will help us strengthen our cross-Government response to the issues people are experiencing to promote good mental health and well-being and ensure that timely support is available for people.
We have done our utmost to ensure this consultation is as accessible as possible. The consultation is available in full on our website alongside easy-read versions, and we have developed specific resources to support children and young people. We have also created engagement packs to support those working with vulnerable groups or people with lived experience to help them to respond to the consultation. We will all have an interest in this area and I encourage people to respond to the consultation. Diolch.

James Evans AS: I'd like to thank the Deputy Minister for your statement today and the pre-advanced copy of what you just said.
Reducing the rates of suicide and self-harm in our society is vital. Suicide and self-harm, especially suicide, leaves far too many families and people and loved ones across Wales with a hole that can never be filled. And also, reducing self-harm is very important because we don't want to see the long-term lasting effects of that on people, and also, people lose their lives when they self-harm, as well, and that's something we need to get on top of.
It's good to hear, Deputy Minister, the organisations that you've worked with, especially the Youth Parliament. I think it's very, very important that we get the views of young people when we create these strategies, because a lot of young people do suffer with mental health conditions, so it's vitally important that we get their buy-in and input into these strategies. In the statement, you talked about co-design and cross-governmental working, and I know that that's a priority for you. These strategies, right across Government, are everybody's business, but I'm interested in how these structures are going to work. When we get feedback and input back from the strategies, how are they going to be monitored and what mechanisms are you putting in place so that the Senedd can actually be kept updated, through the committee structure and the Chamber, to make sure that these strategies are actually delivering on what they're supposed to do?
One of the groups that really does worry me, and it's mentioned, is young men and middle-aged men. We know that they're more likely to take their own lives and I'd be interested to know what work you're doing around that specific group to get their feedback into these consultations. Because it's very difficult for men to come forward to talk about their mental health experiences, so I think it'd be interesting and a lot of people would like to know what the Government is doing around that.
For a lot of these strategies to work, it is going to need the buy-in and collective responsibility of health boards as well. So, one thing I'd like to know from you, Deputy Minister, is what conversations you've had with our health boards and the boards around these strategies and what their response has been and how they're going to feed into this consultation as well. Because as you mentioned around financial pressures, everybody is under financial pressure at the moment, so it'd be interesting to see how they can actually make these work in practice.
The higher level objective No. 4 was to increase skills, awareness and knowledge of suicide and self-harm. It states in there that it's going to be done through training and awareness, but we all know, anecdotally and from other areas, that when doctors and nurses are going through training in general practice, actually, the mental health element is quite a small part of their training. So, it'd be interesting to know what conversations you've had with the education Minister and the overall health Minister around this and how we can embed mental health more into our training so that people are more aware of it.
Higher level objective 6 talks about the media and I do totally agree with you about the language that we use when we talk about suicide and self-harm; it has to be done in an appropriate way. As we're all aware, media is still a reserved matter for the UK Government, so you probably had to have cross-governmental talks around how the media is managed and how those discussions are had. So, it'd be interesting to know what discussions you've had with UK Government, but also with the media outlets here in Wales, about how they discuss mental health, how they talk about suicide and how they talk about self-harm.
You did talk, at the start of your statement, about the Health and Social Care Committee and about the 'Connecting the dots: tackling mental health inequalities in Wales' report. So, I'd like to understand from you how that fed into this consultation and what recommendations they put forward that you're going to be driving forward as part of these strategies to make sure that those reports that we get from committees don't sit on a shelf. Some of the recommendations that they actually bring forward can really improve the lives of people with lived experience. So, I think that'd be very important as well.
Finally, Minister, as this consultation has gone out, you outlined that you will be engaging with as many groups as possible, but one thing I'd really like to know is about those people with lived experience, because I always think, in these consultation responses, we always get replies from the usual suspects who reply back to everything with the usual responses to almost every consultation that goes out; we've all seen them through health—. We greatly appreciate them, but we normally get the same responses back. But I personally think that those lived experience responses are the ones—. Even going through my own process now, my own Bill, which you're aware of, those people who respond to you really cut a deep chord and actually, really, what you want to listen to and understand and how you can develop those into strategies to make sure that those people live healthier and fulfilled lives—. So, I'm looking forward to the outcome of this consultation, as it runs in parallel with my own Bill's consultation—I'll drop that in, but I'm probably not supposed to, under spokesperson's questions, Deputy Llywydd, but I'll do it anyway. But I'd just like to thank the Minister for your statement and I look forward to this consultation as it goes forward, and how we can improve the lives of those affected by mental health here in Wales.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much, James, for that very positive response to the statement, and can I just take this opportunity, Dirprwy Lywydd, to just place on record my thanks to Welsh Government officials for all their work on these two strategies? It's not an easy task to deliver two strategies in such a co-productive way, while doing all the things that they have to do on a daily basis, and I am really, really pleased and appreciative of the work that they've done.
James, you raised many points there, and thank you for starting with the suicide prevention strategy. I'm really keen that that is as much of a focus as our mental health and well-being strategy. They're separate, but interconnected. So, that's really important. We are committed to reducing the number of people who die by suicide. As far as I'm concerned, one person dying by suicide is one too many. The rates have been largely stable over the last few years, but we want to drive those rates down much further, and that's what this new strategy is about.
You referenced self-harm, and that's why we've focused on self-harm in the strategy, because we know that people who self-harm have got a much higher risk of going on and completing suicide. So, they are a group of people that we really need to focus on. But we've taken a very granular approach to high-risk groups in the strategy, so we've identified which groups are more likely to self-harm. We want to build the evidence base on self-harm, and that's an approach that we've also taken to men as well. We're used to saying that there is a problem with male suicide, but we know that it is a certain group of men, middle-aged men, that are much likely more likely to die by suicide. So, that's reflected in the strategy, and I can confirm that there is already a lot of work going on. We've had workshops with men to listen to them about the issues that they're facing so that we can really co-produce that response with men.
You highlighted the importance of this being a cross-Government strategy, which it absolutely is, and I'm very grateful for the buy-in from all my Cabinet colleagues. But you're absolutely right, once we have the completed strategies, we need to monitor and drive that implementation. That's why, with my colleague Julie Morgan, we've established a new delivery and assurance board to drive that, as two Ministers representing health and social care, to make sure that we've got that high-level Welsh Government mechanism to drive delivery. But as well as that, we also have cross-Government working with Cabinet colleagues. We've got two cross-Government officials groups, one looking at mental health and well-being, and the other one looking at suicide prevention. So, that work is really embedded throughout the Government, and it is absolutely the case that we will be providing—. I committed that we would provide reports on progress. The plan is that, when we have completed the consultation, we will publish the final strategies, with delivery plans underpinning them, and then we will also identify what those reporting arrangements will be.
Thank you for your comments about the health boards. Obviously, getting their buy-in is crucial, especially in the current climate. The NHS executive is going to be running specific workshops with the NHS to get their views on the strategies, so we'll be able to take their feedback specifically on that and to identify what more we can do in that space.
You mentioned, in terms of the suicide prevention strategy, high-level objective 4, which is the one about training. Now, I think suicide prevention is everybody's business. I've said it many times. I want to see us all upskilled in having those life-saving conversations with people. So, our approach to training is that kind of approach, really. We've got a new website with all sorts of training opportunities, but we also, as you say, need to embed that in the NHS, and we’ve got our new strategic mental health workforce plan that will help us with that, and obviously I have regular discussions with the health Minister on that.
In terms of high-level objective 6, which is on the media, we need to keep focusing on the media. I think there have been improvements; most media outlets are aware of the excellent Samaritans guidance on reporting suicide, but they don’t all follow it as much as they could do, and we’re going to continue that dialogue with the media in Wales and with the UK Government as well. But what I would say is it’s not just about the media; it’s about the language that we all use when we talk about suicide, and I would refer Members again to the Samaritans guidance that they issued at World Suicide Prevention Day in the autumn, which encourages us all to use responsible language when we talk about suicide, because vulnerable people could be listening to us and it could influence their behaviour.
Just in terms of the committee report ‘Connecting the dots’, obviously that was a really key, major piece of work; it majored significantly on health inequalities and the social determinants of mental health, and I think, if you look at the strategy, you can see that we have looked at that in great detail. We’ve taken the Marmot principles as the way to frame the actions that we’re taking on that. The other kinds of areas that we’ve picked up from their report are the need for there to be a bigger focus on serious mental illness, because that has tended to be an area that perhaps there hasn’t been the focus on; children and young people—a key priority area for us. But I hope that the committee, when looking at the consultation document, will see that the work that they did has informed our consultations.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for the statement from the Deputy Minister. I’m liking a lot of what I’m hearing. The landscape of mental health care has evolved significantly since the publication of the original ‘Together for Mental Health‘ strategy back in 2012. In recent years, we’ve witnessed a long-overdue shift in societal attitudes towards mental health. Harmful social stigmas are being increasingly dismantled, and public discourse on mental health is noticeably more receptive to the sensitivities involved. But much work remains to be done. Last year, Plaid Cymru called on the Government to include a specific perinatal focus in the upcoming strategy and I’d like to reiterate this call today. As many as one in four women experience a mental health problem during pregnancy or in the first year after the birth of their baby. This equates to around 9,000 new mothers in Wales each year. Around one in 10 partners also experience a mental health problem during this period and this ratio is significantly higher for partners of women who have mental health issues themselves.
The first 1,000 days of a child’s life are instrumental in shaping their lifelong well-being. A failure to identify and respond to perinatal mental health issues as soon as they manifest perpetuates and entrenches mental health issues, as well as related physical issues, throughout later life for parents and children alike. If we are to develop a truly holistic and preventative mental health strategy therefore, it must be effective at the very start of life. In practical terms, this means ensuring that all seven perinatal mental health services in Wales fully meet national type 1 College Centre for Quality Improvement standards as well as substantially upscaling training and development pathways on infant mental health for healthcare professionals.
This leads me on to my next point, which is the need to address the particular barriers being faced by children and young people when it comes to accessing mental health support. Young people experienced the largest average deterioration in their mental well-being as a result of the pandemic. And yet waiting times for local primary mental health support services are disproportionately longer for Welsh children compared to adults. I’d be very grateful, therefore, if the Deputy Minister could explain how this new strategy can get the Government back on track to meet its target of providing at least 80 per cent of children and young people with mental health referrals within 28 days, which has not been met for some time. This of course relates to a wider issue of inequalities in the provision of mental health services, whereby gender, age, ethnicity, household income and geographic location all too often determine the quality of care. For instance, women in Wales exhibited worse levels of mental health after the onset of the pandemic, resulting in a widening of the gap in reported well-being between men and women. On this basis, I'm concerned at the implications of the planned reprioritisation of £15 million from the mental health budget, which the Government has readily acknowledged will result in initiatives to combat social inequalities being delivered more gradually. Could the Deputy Minister therefore provide further details on what this will mean for timescales and relevant targets?
Finally, I welcome the fact that the Government intends to continue with a separate strategy for the suicide and self-harm prevention agenda, and I fully agree with the rationale for doing so. It is a tragedy and a damning indictment of how our society is failing the most vulnerable that suicide is the main cause of death for men under the age of 50—my own family and too many others here today continue to grieve and suffer because of this—while, here in Wales, suicide rates for both men and women remain high and well above the average for England and Wales.
One of the key recommendations of the ORS report on developing the successor strategies to 'Together for Mental Health' and 'Talk to Me 2' was the need to improve means of collecting data to evidence success or otherwise, but a recurring problem in the context of suicide prevention is the fact that median registration delay for coroner reports on suicides is significantly longer in Wales compared to England, which inevitably compromises the value of published statistics. So, could the Deputy Minister therefore confirm that this particular issue will be considered as part of the Government's work? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much, Mabon, for your comments and your positive response to the statement, highlighting very important issues. And I completely agree with you that, on things like stigma, we haven't cracked it yet, we've got more work that we need to do, and that's why stigma is such a key focus in the new strategy.
You talked about perinatal mental health and infant mental health, both of which are incredibly important to me. I'm passionate about attachment principles. I've said many times that, if there's a silver bullet in mental health, I think it's the early years. That first 1,000 days is that really fantastic opportunity to give a child that start for the rest of their life, informing those secure relationships. Perinatal mental health will continue to be a priority, but we've particularly highlighted in the strategy that we want to develop lower level support. Because we've made good progress, we've got perinatal mental health teams in every part of Wales, we've got the mother and baby unit in Tonna Hospital, we've got the one coming on-stream in north Wales, but what I feel we are needing to do more on is that lower level support: women who don't meet the clinical threshold, and fathers as well. I went to meet with a group in James Evans's constituency, Mums Matter, where the third sector were delivering a programme, just bringing mothers together, really, to talk about the problems a lot of us have when we first become mothers, and it was phenomenal. It wasn't clinical. And I had women there saying to me, 'This programme has saved my life.' And I want to see more of that kind of initiative for everyone in Wales.
Infant mental health is specifically committed to in the strategy. We've only got two teams at the moment in Wales delivering infant mental health support, slightly different models in both, but I'm really keen that we have provision throughout Wales to underpin that support for the first 1,000 days.
You raised the issues around children and young people, and there's nothing closer to my heart than children and young people's services. I think it is important to recognise that a key shift we're trying to make in this strategy is one that we've made to some extent already for children and young people, who've told us repeatedly, 'Don't medicalise our mental health. Don't medicalise growing up.' Lots of young people can get support without accessing specialist services. That's why we've got a whole-school approach, we've got our NEST/NYTH system, and they're committed to in the strategy. We do need to make more progress on the measure for children and young people. We've invested in dedicated resource in the NHS executive's mental health programme—£2.2 million—and they are working with health boards to drive those improvements. All health boards have trajectories to recover their performance. And we've already seen good progress in specialist CAMHS, and we need to see that now with the measure.
You referred to the funding, Mabon, and I've been very open with the Senedd in committees that we weren't able to take that extra step of having the additional £15 million. We have invested £75 million extra, made available this year, and £50 million last year, but because of the really difficult financial situation we couldn't go that extra step with the £15 million. But that is more than compensated for by the fact that we have prioritised the mental health ring fence that goes out to health boards. That's seen an increase of £25 million, and it was a balancing thing, really. I felt it was really important to protect those front-line services, that anything that undermined the ring fence would do more damage to efforts to deliver parity between mental and physical health in the long term. And we have struggled to spend some of the extra investment that we've put into mental health because of workforce challenges. So, we're able to manage that reduction in the central MEG, I think, through underspends and just profiling the spend slightly differently, so that priority is still there for investing in mental health.
Thank you for your comments on suicide and self-harm and for highlighting the work done by ORS. I'm very happy to commit to looking at the issue with the coroners. I think there is much more work we can do with coroners in general, because I think it can be a really traumatising experience for families, and the last thing we want is for families to be retraumatised. But we have got over that hurdle of the delays in Wales, because we have real-time suicide surveillance across Wales now—that's not something they've got in England—and that published its first report in January this year. That enables us to respond really, really quickly. We can identify any clusters and respond to any issues in localities, so I'm really pleased that we've got that in place, because we've got that real-time information that doesn't rely on us waiting for the outcome of a coroner's court. Thank you.

Jack Sargeant AC: Minister, can I thank you for bringing today's statement forward on the two strategies and once again demonstrating your commitment to improving mental health and to suicide prevention? Presiding Officer, I spoke very recently about my own loss through suicide, particularly my dad and my best friend of 20 years, Jamie Wynne. I shared that experience and the experience of my own personal battles with mental health because I want to help others. I genuinely want to help others. I don't want another family to go through what mine and Jamie's had to.
But I'm also committed to supporting others who want to help—people like Connah's Quay Town Football Club, Jamie's grass-roots football club, who are seeking to do just that, just to help others. They've taken a number of steps, Minister, to encourage players and fans who are struggling with their own personal mental health to seek support from either the well-being champions within the club, or through recognised charities and mental health organisations that they've signposted. Do you agree with me that the work of Connah's Quay Town FC should be applauded and shared as best practice across Wales? And perhaps as part of the consultation going forward, would you instruct officials to meet with the club to discuss further how this could be replicated across Wales? Diolch.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much, Jack. Can I pay tribute to the work you've been doing? I recognise that it's really hard to talk about the experiences that you've been through, but it will make a huge difference to people hearing you, and we've talked a lot about stigma, and it is breaking down the stigma, so I do really thank you for the work that you're doing. I'm very happy to applaud Connah's Quay Town Football Club. I think it is brilliant that they're doing this and, actually, I think there's huge potential with football clubs more generally—Cardiff City Foundation are also doing good work, the Welsh Football Association are—because what football clubs give us is a sense of belonging, and we know that belonging is protective for mental health, and not belonging is the contrary. So, there's enormous potential there, and it also really chimes with what we're trying to do in the strategy, which says that not everybody needs specialist medical support: it is about that company, not being isolated, that sense of belonging. So, thank you for highlighting that, and I'm very happy to meet with the club myself to listen to work that they've been doing and to see what lessons we can learn for elsewhere in Wales.

Jayne Bryant AC: I'd like to thank the Deputy Minister for her statement today and put on record my thanks for the tireless work that she does in this area. I know it's something that is a personal commitment on this, and I'd like to recognise the work that she has done and continues to do in this area. There's so much to welcome in this today, in the statement, and I was particularly happy to hear the Deputy Minister today say that good mental health is not just a health and social care issue, and as chair of the Senedd's cross-party group on suicide prevention, something I followed the Deputy Minister in, I'm acutely aware of the need for society and Government to work together to continue to improve services and attitudes to mental health and well-being.
The draft strategies launched today are a crucial opportunity to raise awareness of the social determinants of poor mental health and the role of health inequalities. Recently released data evidence that poverty and inequality remain key risk factors, and addressing those social, economic and environmental inequalities requires cross-sector collaboration. An excellent example is the Samaritans UK rail partnership, soon to be extended to the south Wales core Valleys lines. Much of the impact of this initiative is made by rail employees trained and empowered to act, showing what is possible through collaboration across sectors.
And just finally, Deputy Llywydd, I know that schools across Wales have pioneered new approaches to promoting good mental health and well-being in young people, and prevention and early intervention are key to continuing the work of ensuring that our new curriculum fulfils legislative duties to well-being and mental health. Diolch.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much, Jayne, for your kind words and for your welcome for the two strategies today, and thank you for the work that you do with the suicide prevention cross-party group. It's incredibly important. And as you've highlighted, poverty and inequality are key drivers of not just suicide, but poor mental health, so that's why we've got a really strong focus. There's a whole chapter dedicated. One of the vision statements is on cross-Government working, and I would encourage Members to have a look at it because, actually, when you see it all written down, it's really quite impressive how much cross-Government working there is with all Ministers, not just my colleague Julie Morgan, but Vaughan Gething, the transport Minister, and it is absolutely vital that we do that work.
And thank you for highlighting the Samaritans' rail initiative, which I think is excellent. We know that the railways—. A priority in our strategy is to reduce access to means and locations, so we need to tackle the things that go on in railway, so that's really very welcome, and I'm delighted to hear that it's going to be coming to south Wales.
And thank you for highlighting the schools work. It's absolutely critical, and the work that we're doing with children and young people has really informed the work that we're doing with adults. They said to us, 'Don't medicalise growing up', and that's why we want that universal support in schools, underpinned by our curriculum, to try and stop those problems escalating. Thank you.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I genuinely welcome both of the strategies—the mental health and well-being, and the suicide and self-harm prevention strategies—and the consultations, and join the Minister in urging people to put their thoughts into this on how we take this forward.
When I was a very young man, a long time ago, we were a very tight group of five of us that always went everywhere together. We were idiots. We were never bad, but we were idiots, and then we went our own way to college and to jobs and so on, and one of us, one of our tight little group took his own life, out of the blue—the most vivacious, the most outgoing, the most extroverted, the most talented of all of us, and I often stop and think, 'What if?' And that's why what really leaps out at me in the statement today is where you say,
'This approach recognises that suicide and self-harm are not diagnosable mental health conditions and many people who die by suicide are not known to mental health services. There is also a prevailing misconception that people who die by suicide have a mental health illness, and it is vital that we challenge this perception to remove the stigma and support people who need it.'
I so much agree. And can I, along with Jack, who mentioned some of the excellent work that's going on in groups out there, if you or your officials want at any time to come and visit the 14 volunteers in the Ogmore Valley Suicide Awareness CIC, who work with local groups and organisations—football clubs, rugby clubs, various local groups—to raise awareness of the support that's out there for people who can really help them, and have those conversations as well. They organise coffee mornings and so on. So, Minister, if you ever want to come and chat to somebody down our way, I'm sure they'd really welcome it.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much, Huw, for your welcome. I'm really sorry to hear about your friend. That's something that affects people for the rest of their lives, and it's that 'what if?', isn't it, really, and it's important that we all remember that, as well as suicide not being a mental health issue—although it can be a mental health issue, but it's not necessarily a mental health issue—we also have to remember that suicide is not inevitable, and there are opportunities for prevention, and that's what this new strategy is about, seeking out those opportunities for prevention and really going at every single one of those.
Thank you for highlighting the group in your constituency, the suicide awareness CIC. I didn't know about that, and I'd be very happy to meet with them. Just to say as well that we have developed engagement packs to work with both the strategies, so the groups can have the packs and they can use them to consult with their own members. So, if any Members know of any groups that they think would like to be involved in the consultation, if you could e-mail me, that would be brilliant, because we're keen to get the maximum amount of engagement. Thank you.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Deputy Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip: The Welsh Benefits System and Charter

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 6 today is a statement by the Minister for Social Justice: the Welsh benefits system and charter. I call on the Minister, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I welcome this opportunity to make a statement on the launch of the Welsh benefits charter on 22 January 2024 at Blaenavon Resource Centre with the leader of Torfaen County Borough Counciland Plaid Cymru’s designated Member, Sian Gwenllian MS. The charter is a key new part of our Welsh benefits system.
The charter, which has been co-produced with a range of stakeholders, and endorsed by all 22 local authorities, sets out high-level principles for a compassionate, person-centred Welsh benefits system, a system that is based on a person's entitlement to financial support, removing the stigma that some people feel when they are asking for a benefit.
A Welsh benefits system where people only need tell their story once to access their entitlements has been a long-term vision. We would not be where we are today without the hard work and dedication of many people. I would like to thank John Griffiths MS, and the members of the former Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, for their excellent report 'Benefits in Wales: options for better delivery'. The Welsh benefits charter is based upon the committee’s recommendation for the collective development of a set of principles underpinning the design and delivery of Welsh benefits.
I would also like to thank the Bevan Foundation and their partners, including Policy in Practice, for the series of research papers they have produced on a Welsh benefits system. These have informed our understanding of what a coherent and integrated Welsh benefits system looks like and guided the development of the commitments in the Welsh benefits charter.
The Welsh Local Government Association and local authority representatives helped to develop the charter, and following the partnership council for Wales meeting last November, chaired by the Minister for Finance and Local Government, all local authorities endorsed the charter. This represents a clear collective commitment to establish and strengthen a streamlined Welsh benefits system, as is embodied in the Welsh benefits charter, as the first important step on this journey.
An external steering group has been established to develop an action plan of all the activities that need to be completed to bring the charter commitments to life in a practical sense. And I'm pleased that Fran Targett has agreed to chair the external steering group. The members were chosen because of their expertise in the delivery of Welsh benefits or in supporting people who experience most difficulty when claiming benefits. The steering group held its inaugural meeting on 14 February and aims to have produced an action plan by summer 2024. The steering group will also determine the measures that are appropriate to be used to assess progress against the attainment of the eight outcomes set out within the charter, and report on progress to the partnership council for Wales.
It is important to note, though, that we're not starting this programme of work from a standstill. As we saw during the COVID pandemic, Welsh local authorities are skilled in the design and delivery of financial support schemes. A recent audit by the Welsh Local Government Association found most authorities are already making progress to join up the Welsh benefits they're responsible for delivering, with some assessing entitlement to three key benefits from a single application. It's this good practice that local authorities are now working together to replicate across Wales.
I know Members have welcomed the implementation of the Welsh benefits charter. It is a positive example of what can be achieved when different stakeholders sharing the same aim work in partnership. And I hope Members will now support the ongoing programme of work that will turn the charter’s commitments into action. The work to strengthen a Welsh benefits system is progressing, as a result of our co-operation agreement commitment with Plaid Cymru, to support the devolution of the administration of welfare and explore the necessary infrastructure required to prepare for this and fully attain our vision for a Welsh benefits system.
Through the implementation of the Welsh benefits charter, we're putting in place the building blocks of the infrastructure for a compassionate, person-centred Welsh benefits system. Any future administration of welfare powers would be delivered in line with the charter’s aims. But this is a complex area. It is important we understand all implications of devolving the administration of welfare. We're therefore commissioning independent research that will provide an evidence-based summary of how the devolution of the administration of welfare could be taken forward in Wales, and to inform the organisational design work that would be required to enable the transfer of these powers to Wales. The findings from this research will therefore help identify the next practical steps for the devolution of the administration of welfare.
We're also looking closely at the work being done in Scotland, where the administration of welfare is devolved. The designated Member and I have met with Social Security Scotland and colleagues in the Scottish Government to understand more about the experience there and how any lessons could be applied here. As set out in objective 1 of the child poverty strategy, improving access to Welsh benefits is one of the positive steps we're taking to reduce costs and maximise the incomes of families. Together with our continued support for the single advice fund, the flagship 'Claim what’s yours' benefit take-up campaign, and provision of free awareness-raising training for front-line workers, we are ensuring families across Wales claim every pound to which they're entitled.
We're rightly proud of the financial support that the Welsh Government makes available, which includes free school meals, the school essentials grant, the council tax reduction scheme, and the education maintenance allowance. These payments are making a difference to the lives of hundreds of thousands of people in Wales. This year alone, 260,912 households are receiving help with paying their council tax bill, with over 210,000 households paying no council tax at all.
A Welsh benefits system where a person only has to tell their story once to access all their entitlements will have a positive impact on maximising household income and tackling poverty, and I thank our partners who are now working towards implementing this system.

Mark Isherwood AC: Questioning you here three weeks ago on the Welsh benefits charter, I noted that for almost a decade, service providers and researchers across the sector have been calling for a coherent and integrated Welsh benefits system for all the means-tested benefits the Welsh Government is responsible for. When you launched the Welsh Government's benefits charter last month, you told us that it aims to increase take-up of Welsh benefits, enabling more people in Wales to take up their entitlement, and to identify and remove the barriers that prevent people from claiming their entitlements.
However, the Welsh Local Government Association then issued a press release making clear that far from being the launch of a Welsh benefits system, local authorities had only agreed to work with the Welsh Government to take action towards developing one. So, just as the Children's Commissioner for Wales stated in the context of your child poverty strategy, the lack of detailed actions, timescales and deliverables again means that there is no way of holding the Welsh Government to account. Do you therefore have a timescale for the introduction of a Welsh benefits system, and, if so, what targets will be in place to measure progress?

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Mark Isherwood AC: In your reply, you stated that all 22 local authorities have signed up to the charter. Have they agreed when they will implement a Welsh benefits system by, and, if so, when is this? Further, have they agreed to implement this on a uniform basis across Wales to avoid any postcode lottery? And critically, how will you monitor implementation and practice to ensure effectiveness, efficiency and target outcomes? You also stated that there's going to be an independent external reference group—now steering group—chaired by Fran Targett, putting the charter into practice. Although you state today that the steering group aims to produce an action plan by summer 2024, what terms of reference, targets and timescales have you set the external steering group?
The Bevan Foundation states that it's eager to ensure that the Welsh Government delivers on its commitment to establish a Welsh benefits system in the round. How do you therefore respond to their statement that although the current arrangements are based on collaboration and partnership, participation is therefore voluntary with a risk that the some bodies do not participate at all, while others do their own thing? And how do you respond to their calls on the Welsh Government, including to put participation on a firmer footing by requiring local authorities to align their administration of the council tax reduction scheme with other devolved schemes they administer, to set out a clear route map to bring other means-tested grants and allowances into the system beyond the original idea of seven different schemes brought into a common framework, and to reimburse local authorities and potentially others in due course for additional costs, starting with the council tax reduction scheme, where there is expected to be the largest increase in take-up? When I asked you these questions three weeks ago, your reply focused on generalities. I'd therefore be grateful if you could provide specific answers to these specific questions, either today or in writing after we conclude.
The Welsh benefits charter states that the Welsh Government and local authorities will work in partnership with other delivery partners to design an inclusive system. I was a member of the 2019 Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee inquiry into benefits in Wales and options for better delivery. Witnesses, including Community Housing Cymru, called for better integration between jobcentres and locally delivered services. However, the Welsh benefits charter only refers to continuing to work with the Department for Work and Pensions to raise awareness and promote the take-up of non-devolved benefits in Wales, without any reference to a collaborative role for local Jobcentre Plus offices, which are already established to administer non-devolved welfare benefits and which, working with local authorities, can become a single point of contact for devolved benefits also.
So, what, if any, specific discussions have you had with the UK DWP regarding the role that Jobcentre Plus offices can play in an integrated Welsh benefits system, working collaboratively with local authorities across Wales?When I asked you this three weeks ago, you only provided a general answer about how you work where you can with Jobcentre Plus to ensure there's a take-up of both Welsh Government benefits and of UK Government benefits like pension credit. How will you therefore ensure that the call by witnesses to the 2019 committee inquiry for Jobcentre Plus offices to act as a single point of access, by incorporating a local authority Welsh benefits service, is acted upon?
And finally, given your reference to devolution of the administration of welfare and the work being done in Scotland, what evidence do you have that this is likely to happen in Wales—and I did support it in that report—and what consideration have you given to relevant content in our 2019 committee report, including the unforeseen costs incurred, when we visited Edinburgh and took evidence from the Scottish Government, from Social Security Scotland, from the relevant Scottish Parliament committee, and from the Scottish third sector partners who had co-produced the system introduced in Scotland? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Mark Isherwood. I’m sure you must be delighted to see that the work that you were involved in, indeed, with John Griffiths chairing that committee, has now come to fruition with the launch of the Welsh benefits charter. Clearly, this is about committing to ensuring that people in Wales claim every pound they’re entitled to. And also, we know people are still missing out on their entitlements, including the financial support that we, the Welsh Government, are responsible for. So, that’s why we’re creating this more joined-up Welsh benefits system where a person only has to tell their story once to access their entitlements.
Can I just say that this has been co-produced with key stakeholders from the Welsh Local Government Association, local authorities and third sector organisations? It was really great when we had that launch event back in January, when we went to Blaenavon resource centre and the leader of Torfaen council, Councillor Anthony Hunt, who is actually the lead cabinet member for finance for Welsh local government as well, was there fully in support of the launch, and also demonstrating what a council like Torfaen can do to ensure that we do have that joined-up Welsh benefits system where a person only has to tell their story once to access their entitlements. I think it’s really interesting, because he also had his team, what he called the revenue and benefits team at Torfaen council, because he has told us on many occasions that it’s the 'rev-ben' team in all authorities. The society of treasurers will be engaged with this as well—they’re the ones at the front line, who actually are going to deliver this.
It is important to recognise this is a major step forward. You’ve seen the Welsh benefits charter, you’ve seen the fact that every logo of every authority in Wales is signed up to this. It’s a tremendous achievement, but of course it is about delivery, it’s about implementation. That’s why it was the partnership council meeting, chaired by the Minister for Finance and Local Government, which was so important, because they all formally endorsed the Welsh benefits charter, very much led by Councillor Anthony Hunt as the finance lead for local government in Wales. They confirmed their collective commitment to improving access to financial support for people across Wales. The Welsh Local Government Association were at the launch on 22 January, and I’m looking forward, in fact, to a visit tomorrow, with the designated Member, to Carmarthenshire Council, to one of their hubs, and the Deputy Minister went to Ynys Môn, and visited a team there. I think in all your constituencies I do urge you to go and see how they are delivering on the Welsh benefits charter, because they’ve all signed up to it.
Just on the question of implementation of the charter and how it will be measured, there are eight outcomes that I’ve listed in the charter, and it actually covers a range of intended impacts: most importantly, first of all, increased take-up of Welsh benefits, maximising household incomes; secondly, informed Welsh policy that has involved partners and individuals and other stakeholders in development; thirdly, awareness of benefit entitlement and support available; and fourthly, commitments on income maximisation, welfare benefits, financially resilient communities, outcomes improved for children and young people from low-income households, reduction in the need for emergency aid such as foodbanks, and take-up measured by the number of people supported by the Welsh Government benefits scheme.
This external steering group has been set up to oversee this work on streamlining the Welsh benefits system and they’re developing their reporting mechanism for measuring progress against these outcomes. I’ve already said in my statement that they’re going to produce an action plan by the summer, and they’re also looking at how they can measure some of those softer outcomes about attitudinal change.
I just want to briefly and quickly turn to the UK Government benefits system, which I do not believe is a compassionate, coherent, person-centred benefits system. The fact is that the UK Government benefits system is still, for example, not treating people with compassion and dignity, but using punitive measures such as benefits sanctions as a means of forcingpeople into unsuitable jobs. Personalised job support is the key factor in removing barriers to employment, but the changes to the universal credit conditionality regime, which were announced last spring, means claimants who are the lead carers of children aged 1 or 2 will be compelled to search for work or face a sanction, even where one parent in the family is already working. But you will be pleased to hear, Mark, that I've met with the UK Government Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work. We've had an inaugural bilateral inter-ministerial group meeting, we've got terms of reference, so it's a positive step towards improved communication and relationships at a ministerial level on areas of mutual interest where we can maximise the take-up of UK Government benefits, as well as our own.

Sioned Williams AS: Thank you for the statement, Minister. Since 2021, as Plaid Cymru spokesperson on social justice, I have supported calls to create a Welsh benefits system many times in the Chamber, and in 2022 the Senedd supported my motion calling for a duty to be imposed on all public sector organisations to ensure that more money does reach the pockets of the people of Wales by increasing the use of Welsh support payments and local authority support payments, and that by simplifying the process of receipt and ensuring consistency throughout Wales.
Plaid Cymru is therefore proud of the work that is taking place through the co-operation agreement to lay the foundations for a Welsh benefits system that includes, of course, the new charter as a first step. And it is a long-awaited first step, however we have to go further if we really want to achieve the goal of ensuring that the welfare system is fit for purpose and fulfils its purpose, namely being an effective safety net for the tens of thousands of households who are finding it more than difficult to make ends meet. The increase in problem debt and the increase in regular use of foodbanks shows us that people no longer have the means to support themselves, and broad-ranging actions are urgently needed if we want to protect them.
The commitment of all local authorities in Wales to the principles of the charter to improve the access of people across Wales to financial support is to be welcomed, of course. The principles of the charter are the basis for creating a more humane and human way of tackling poverty, but the non-statutory nature of the commitment weakens the likelihood that it will achieve that to the greatest possible extent. I've asked this several times but I've not received a clear answer: is the Government confident that the necessary resources have been allocated to local authorities in order to ensure that the limits on their budgets, which we hear so much about—they're critical—don't have an effect on their ability to achieve the objectives of the charter?
If we are serious about creating an effective Welsh benefits system, we must look to Scotland to see what it's achieving. I'm pleased to hear that you've been having meetings on that, because there is no denying that creating benefits that are fit for purpose, and have an impact, such as the Scotland child payment, has been transformative in tackling child poverty, for example. And work must begin on preparing the way to incorporate more grants and other means-tested benefits, and this ability to create payments, such as the child benefit, into a new Welsh system. So, will the Welsh Government set out a clear path and timetable for doing this kind of work?
And in terms of the work that's being done to prepare for the devolution of the powers over the administration of the welfare system, what lessons have been learned from what is being achieved in Scotland to tackle poverty through the welfare system? What work is being done to look at how something like a child payment policy would have an impact on child poverty levels in Wales, and what is the timetable for that work? If there were to be a change of Government in Westminster, would the Government roll out this work as a way of making the case for transferring welfare powers to Wales?
In looking at the manifestos of the candidates for the leadership of the Labour Party in Wales, it's obvious that only one has stated that he's in favour of devolving powers to the welfare state. So, do you agree, Minister, that it would be an empty step to row back on the stated commitment of the Government in this sense, in the wake of a change of First Minister in Wales?
Plaid Cymru is urging the Welsh Government to act with more urgency and more determination to create a Welsh benefits system that will deserve to be called a social security system. At present, too many people are living on the precipice, and too many are already finding themselves caught in the merciless clutches of the poverty trap.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. And this is a very important product of our co-operation agreement. And it's good that it's provided an impetus and has brought to fruition recommendations from a previous committee that was a cross-party committee here in the Senedd. But also, and crucially importantly in terms of delivery, it has engaged all 22 local authorities, and the people who work for them on the front line, with this endorsement of a charter. And as I said in my statement, it's a key new part of a Welsh benefits system. What we found—the Partnership Council for Wales, as I said—was a collective commitment to improving that vital access to financial support. They all share our vision for a Welsh benefits system where a person only has to tell their story once to access their entitlements, and that is why, at this stage—. And I met with Victoria Winckler last week from the Bevan Foundation just to also thank her for the role that they've played—the Bevan Foundation—because their important report making the case for a Welsh benefits system. People's experiences also contributed.And I think this is the first step: to actually get the endorsement of local authorities to have a clear, independent, external reference group with timelines for an action plan is where we need to go, rather than mandating local authorities at this stage. I think they've taken on a mandate themselves by endorsing the charter. But, clearly, then we need to see the delivery of it in terms of the outcomes.
I'm not going to repeat again the eight outcomes listed in the charter covering a range of impacts, but it's interesting that the external reference group wasted no time in meeting and also, as I said, they're developing reporting mechanisms. And if you look at the membership of the external group, it includes many front-line staff from local government, the Trussell Trust, the Ethnic Minorities and Youth Support Team Wales, the Centre for Digital Public Services, the chief digital officer for local government for the WLGA. It includes the Welsh treasuries, it includes Disability Wales, Children in Wales, Citizens Advice, the Bevan Foundation, Age Alliance Wales. They're all very much saying the same things that we're saying, aren't they, about the delivery and the development, through the charter, of our Welsh benefits system?
And also they've got work streams on digital and data, eligibility—phase 1. Now this is an important point, because discussing this with the Bevan Foundation last week, obviously we want to see phase 1 work. That's about the three key benefits: free school meals, the school essentials grant—and, of course, this links entirely with the ways in which we're trying to tackle inequality and poverty via the school essentials grant—and the council tax reduction scheme. But this is only a first step, and I want to make that clear today—this is phase 1. This is how we move forward on this work, and, of course, other themes—other work streams on research, strategic communications, learning and development for local authorities. So, I haven't met with Policy in Practice yet, but I think they will—. As you know, we've met with them and indeed with the designated Member, and I know that they've been engaging with the cross-party group on poverty as well. So, I think we can see that the steps are being taken in the right direction.
So, I just also want to say that it is useful to see not just the work that I'm developing with the UK Government—and I reflected on that—but to look at the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales. And this really relates to some of the points that you've made about potential for child payments, for example, in Wales—that the constitution commission recognise that devolution and more powers for welfare benefits will be feasible only with a substantial increase in tax and borrowing powers, to enable the Welsh Government to take on the related risks and liabilities. And, obviously, I was keen to see what they would be saying as far as this was concerned, and I think it is important to reflect on that and to take that forward, in terms of understanding what that would mean in terms of that more substantial devolution that we—. But they weren't themselves—they reflected on it, rather than making clear recommendations.
Can I just make another point, and it responds to the point that was made earlier on, I think, by Mark Isherwood, about the council tax reduction scheme? I think, also, we are improving access—as well as through these benefits, we're improving access to the council tax reduction scheme as a result of the consultation last summer on putting a duty on Welsh Ministers to establish a single national scheme administered locally by local authorities and enabling in-year changes. So, we are making changes, we are progressing in different ways—in that respect,through the Local Government Finance (Wales) Bill, so that we can have that national scheme and have those in-year changes, so that there are more flexible opportunities to respond to emerging demands.
The council tax reduction scheme has historically low take-up, and the number of households receiving council tax reduction continues to fall, so we are consulting further, actually, on the changes that are needed to the council tax reduction scheme to make those reductions easier. But we now do have that opportunity, I think, as a result of the work that we've done together in the co-operation agreement, the external reference group and the endorsement of 22 local authorities, to drive this forward to deliver the outcomes that I know that we share.

John Griffiths AC: Thank you for your work on this, Minister. It is very gratifying to see the work that the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee did with organisations like the Bevan Foundation—to see that coming to fruition and progressing through the Welsh Government and the co-operation agreement is very heartening indeed. It is about reducing outgoings and maximising income for families and individuals in Wales, Minister, and to that extent, I'd like your view on the value of payments and eligibility criteria, because we know that schemes, for example, relating to schools have been frozen in those terms for a number of years, and, obviously, that's made it more difficult to increase the income of families in the way that is necessary.
With regard to what you said, Minister, about, perhaps, several benefits schemes possibly being included, but starting with a few and then, maybe, expanding that number, might you set out a clear route-map in terms of the process involved in that, because, again, that's, I think, a very important part of the consolidation and user-friendliness that we need to create if we are to see the charter implemented effectively on the ground, delivering the benefit that we'd all like to see?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, John Griffiths, and can I thank you for the leadership you showed as Chair of the committee that actually did undertake this work in the last Senedd, and the way in which you gave the evidence that, in fact, was then very much endorsed by the Wales Centre for Public Policy—the research that we undertook to look further at the opportunities and options for the devolution of the administration of welfare to Wales?
I think you've focused on the key points, in terms of the work that the external reference group is doing, supported by the Centre for Digital Public Services. So, eligibility is key. The phasing—I've already mentioned the fact that, yes, it's phase 1, but we will have a plan in the summer to show how the external reference group feel that they can expand that. They will be very interested in the response today to my statement.
Also, just to say, looking particularly beyond free school meals, the council tax reduction scheme and the school essentials grant, it's important that people still—that this, in itself, can ensure that we get the money out that has been made available. So, for this financial year, £13.6 million has been made available for the school essentials grant, and 87 per cent of this funding allocation has already been paid out to eligible families. We actually have to get the money out—we can allocate it in our budgets—so I think our 'Get help with school costs' campaign is vital. So, this all has to link in in terms of the way that we promote this, because we know that the school essentials grant is crucial. But let's also focus on the education maintenance allowance. I'm sure that they'll be looking at that as well, with the increase, the uplift, to £40 a week last April, recognising the costs on those young students, particularly those who remain in post-16 education. And all of us who know and meet young students in that situation know how important the EMA is. It's very much done in partnership with schools and colleges, but I think that's another example of the way we can move forward.
I want to also just finally mention the healthy start vouchers. I don't think the Minister is here with us, but the take-up of the healthy start scheme in Wales is currently 78 per cent and continues to grow steadily, compared with 74 per cent in England and 61 per cent in Northern Ireland. So, if there is a will to do this—. And it's there, in fact, I think the fact that training, the mandatory e-learning course for healthy start for the healthy start network, health professionals, has made a difference. So, the learning of how we can roll this out effectively is crucially important.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We're already out of time for this 30-minute statement, so if I could have short contributions from Members and the Minister, that would help me call a few more Members. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you for this afternoon's statement, Minister.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: As part of our co-operation agreement with the Welsh Government, we're committed to deliver the devolution of administration of the welfare system in Wales. In our view, it will ensure that the provision of welfare support is better tailored to our societal needs. The benefits of devolution in this area are also apparent from a financial perspective. The Wales Governance Centre, for example, have projected that the Welsh Treasury would have saved approximately £700 million between 2018 and 2024 if we had a similar fiscal arrangement in place on welfare to the one negotiated between the Scottish Government and UK Government. Obviously, this projection was made in 2019, before the impact of COVID and the period of high inflation we've been experiencing over the past year, so the figure may well be higher now. Has the Welsh Government done any work to ascertain the latest estimate?
If we just looked at that £700 million, that's around £116 million per year, which would be enough to extend the provision of free school meals to secondary school children in receipt of universal credit, pay for real-terms restoration of the housing support grant, and enough left over to significantly ease the burdens faced by local authorities. I've got three questions, quickly. Can I, therefore, ask what conversations has the Government had with UK Ministers on this front, and do you agree that they should commit the necessary resources to allow devolution to happen? Have you engaged with your UK Labour leadership on this matter too, and, if so, what guarantees have you been able to ascertain to provide that as part of the agenda for Government? And finally, do you believe that the incoming Labour Government at Westminster will be able to deliver this much-needed reform for Wales?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr. Thank you for those key points. We do need to look at this wider, the key issues you have raised, the wider fiscal framework, but also look at what is feasible. I won't repeat again what I said about the constitution committee's findings, but the devolution of more powers for welfare benefits in terms of needing that increase in tax and borrowing powers—. So, we're quite a long way off from that position, but we absolutely acknowledge the points that have been made today.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister, for your important statement today on work to deliver both a Welsh benefits charter and system. My thanks to you, your officers, local government and all relevant stakeholders for getting us to this position.
I've just got one question, to keep things quick. I think it's important that any support can be accessed by all members of our communities, including those who may face challenges in terms of language or ICT literacy. I appreciate that our councils and partner organisations already have experience in addressing these concerns, but how will this expertise be embedded into any future systems so that they do not become impenetrable barriers preventing people from accessing support?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Vikki Howells. You've raised a key point, which I think we've addressed in our external steering group of representatives from Welsh local government, local authorities, but also Disability Wales, Children in Wales, the Ethnic Minorities and Youth Support Team Wales, the Trussell Trust, all those who are working at the sharp end with people with lived experience, to ensure that we get this right in terms of the implementation. I think that's going to be reflected in the working groups that are being set up and also in the ways in which those members can interact. It is about learning and development for local authorities as well, and they recognise this is about us working together to recognise the diversity of Wales and the needs of the poorest.
This is where I also would say that our socioeconomic duty is crucial, and I'm so glad that we did enact that socioeconomic duty, even at the toughest times of the pandemic, because the socioeconomic duty actually puts a duty on all public bodies, including all our local authorities, to look through the perspective of socioeconomic disadvantage. This is crucial to get this right for the charter.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you, Minister, for this important statement. In responding to the consultation by the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales regarding the regulation of linguistic duties and reserved policy matters, the Welsh Language Commissioner noted that social security, child support, pensions and compensation are also reserved matters. Evidently, we welcome the fact that the charter is going to be operating in accordance with the Welsh language standards and talks about access to the system in clear and accessible Welsh, but, obviously, there will be some benefits still under the control of the UK Government. So, could I ask you what assurance or discussions have you had in terms of ensuring that all of this system will be operating through the mediums of Welsh and English, because it will be difficult for people to know what rights they have in terms of using the language of their choice? It's important that both languages are available.
In terms of taking this work forward, the commissioner also said that she was
'not aware of data and research that looks specifically at deprivation and dependency on benefits in communities where there are high percentages of Welsh speakers or among Welsh speakers in general'.
Have you had any discussions or had a look at how we look at this entire system and the specific element of the Welsh language? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much for that important question.

Jane Hutt AC: I would be very happy to meet with the Welsh Language Commissioner, and I'm sure the Minister also will acknowledge this in the work and the engagement liaison with the Welsh Language Commissioner. It's crucially important that we get this right. You shouldn't have to say it, it should happen, but we need to make sure it does, and I'm happy to take this forward.
Also, I think there are other issues in terms of accessibility. If I could just say that there were commitments that were made in the charter, not just commitments on the Welsh language, but also that the communications about Welsh benefits should be available in accessible formats, easy reads, British Sign Language and community languages. So, as I said, the external reference group has actually got a working group on strategic communications, so I'll make sure that that's all fed back to the external reference group.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, Minister.

7. Statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language: The Welsh Language Technology Action Plan

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Next, a statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh language on the Welsh language technology action plan. The Minister to make the statement.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Earlier today, I published the final report on our Welsh language technology action plan. And I'm here today to celebrate the progress that has been made.The report looks back at the five years since we published the plan. It also marks the end of the plan’s lifespan. There is more in the report than I can talk about in this short session today, of course, andthe report brings everything together for you to see.
The three themes of the plan back in 2018 were Welsh language speech technology, computer-assisted translation, and conversational artificial intelligence. We have taken the task seriously. Since then, we have funded, created and worked on many of the things that a language needs to thrive in the digital age. For example, with our grant, Bangor University’s Welsh language transcriber turns spoken Welsh into typed text. This helps Welsh-speaking users who have specific needs. It can also generate subtitles automatically for Welsh language videos and sound files.
By now, people who use Welsh language synthetic voices—for medical or accessibility reasons, for example—have more choice of voices,male and female, in different accents. Wales is a bilingual nation, and so are these voices. They reflect how speakers switch between Welsh and English in everyday conversations.
Machine translation has benefited from our website BydTermCymru. Here we share translation memories freely. With support from our grant, Bangor University has created specialist machine translation engines, one for health and care, and the other for legislation. The university has also worked with the company behind ChatGPT, OpenAI, to improve how their most powerful chatbot, GPT-4, processes the Welsh language. This is an example of partnership working, and partnership is central to our work. For example, as part of our partnership with Microsoft, we have collaborated to create a simultaneous interpretation facility in Microsoft Teams meetings.
The plan’s philosophy was to foster a culture of open innovation by ensuring that Welsh language digital resources and data were available to everyone, without unnecessary restrictions on their use. This has enabled developers and Welsh speakers to use and reuse them for their own purposes, and to create new products and services that benefit our language. It has also ensured that the resources that we’ve created are sustainable for the future. Our vision puts our language at the heart of digital developments. The work that we have done supports our goal of doubling the number of us who use Welsh every day, and, of course, of reaching a million Welsh speakers by 2050.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Thank you, Minister, for bringing forward this statement this afternoon and informing us about the current situation.
As an enthusiastic supporter of the Welsh language and as one who is always very excited about new technologies, I recognise how important it is to ensure that technology plays a role in Wales’s journey to realise the ambitions of 'Cymraeg 2050'.
Moving on to this report, it’s almost seven years since the launch of the action plan by your predecessor, who is now the health Minister. According to the report, although technology is all around us, there’s little opportunity to use the Welsh language and, when using the Welsh language is an option, it’s not always clearly accessible. I do feel that we have made important progress since 2017, and today’s statement has endorsed that. Technology should be there to assist our use of the Welsh language, to develop the confidence of Welsh learners or those who are renewing their language skills, and provide a smoother, more user-friendly experience for the user if they do want to use technology through the medium of Welsh. The fact that the action plan recognises that technology is a priority area in terms of securing a place for the Welsh language in our lives is laudable, and, in light of today’s statement, I do feel that progress has been made.
The role of technology in supporting the use of a second language means engagement. I was pleased to see how SaySomethinginWelsh, the developers of Welsh learning apps, have created a free-of-charge short course to help people to learn the Welsh national anthem in time for the six nations match this weekend. They claim that one will be able to learn ‘Hen Wlad fy Nhadau’ in just four lessons, using the app. This kind of innovation embraces the power of technology, with the desire to develop new skills and to make the targets of 'Cymraeg 2050' realisable.
The 2017 report had three areas of priority, as you’ve mentioned: Welsh language speech technology, computer-assisted translation and conversational artificial intelligence, and I know that there are major developments across these three areas.
In focusing on some specific details in the report, therefore, in terms of what will be developed during the time of the action plan, I’m interested in learning how the voice banking facility for individual Welsh voices has been developed, because it is crucial that technology can identify the full range of accents and dialects that are part of our language. So, how will you ensure that all aspects of our language are recognised by technology?
Finally, in terms of Welsh language digital content, what support do we have at present to improve spell-checkers, grammar-checkers and mutation-checkers in Welsh, with the aim of ensuring that more facilities are available free of charge? Have you had any meetings with Microsoft or Google, for example, to discuss the issues, especially given the rapid growth of AI?
Minister, as I said at the outset, realising the ambitions of 'Cymraeg 2050' is something that I want to see happen. The success of the Welsh language technology implementation plan, which is under way, will make that possible.
Perhaps this is the last opportunity for me to discuss Welsh language issues with you in your current role, so, I would like to express my thanks to you for the work that you have done in promoting the Welsh language during your time as Minister. Thank you, Llywydd.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you very much for that, and thank you for very important and incisive questions, if I may say. In terms of what Sam Kurtz said at the outset of his contribution, it is very important, isn't it, that we do ensure, as we set ourselves the aim of doubling the use of daily Welsh, that we do ensure that that is something that is real in our lives in every way, and the contribution of technology in our everyday lives, of course, is a reality and has been for a while and increasingly so, and so it's obviously important for us to continue to be relevant and to ensure that we evolve our strategy in the light of that. Today's statement talks about the infrastructure, if you like, the building blocks behind some of the public offer, but there's also other work happening in terms of learning Welsh through VR—virtual reality—the Aberwla programme and so forth. So, it's important that we continue to be relevant.
The Member talked about the importance of the statement and the strategy of 2017, and in terms of health and care, how important technology can be in that context, so we have funded bilingual synthetic voices that are used in the health sector by speech and language therapists, and the voices are used in Bangor University's Lleisiwr project, which helps patients use the Welsh language after treatment. We've also funded 16 augmentative and alternative communication voices for young people who depend on technology to communicate, for example, and they include voices, as he mentioned, that have accents from north Wales and south Wales, and for girls and boys and for teenagers. Therefore, a diverse range of voices to communicate through.
It is important—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I do apologise for interrupting you. My mistake, I thought you'd concluded your remarks.

Jeremy Miles AC: Just to say, the idea of banking, language banking, is very important. It contributes to the resource available for others to develop what we are investing in. So, Mozilla Common Voice, for example, is an example of how we can use this to create a bank of diverse Welsh voices and then data that can be used to train speech and language systems in Welsh.
Just to say, the partnership working is very important. We have a very good relationship with Microsoft and others, other companies that haven't yet been announced, but I hope to be able to do that before long, and the work with OpenAI is also very exciting.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. I enjoyed reading the report very much and I'd like to congratulate everyone who's been involved with this innovative and important work. It is really valuable for people to know the breadth of what is going on, and I think that one of the challenges is how we promote the fact that these resources are available, so that as many people as possible can benefit from them.
So, one of my questions is: what work will be done now to increase the use of all of these resources to ensure that everyone is aware of them? Because, certainly, I've found out about new things in reading the report, and I do think it's extremely important that we do ensure that that information is out there for people, because there's no point in having these resources unless they are used for their intended purpose, and that people use them in their daily lives.
I also reflect on the fact that what we have here is a final report. Clearly, technology is evolving quickly and all the time, so what are the next steps? Will there be a new plan? How will this work proceed and progress, because we're at the beginning of the journey for many of these projects, and they will evolve, I'm sure?
I would also reflect on the fact that it's seven years since Llyr Gruffydd spoke to Siri in this very Chamber and failed to get a response when communicating in Welsh, and unfortunately I think if you spoke to Siri in Welsh now, the same thing would happen today. It doesn't always understand me when I try and speak English to it, because of my accent. [Laughter.] But there is great work to be done to ensure that that range of technology that is part of our daily lives is available. So, can I ask specifically on Siri, have there been any conversations specifically with Apple, because I note in the report in terms of Alexa and the steps taken there, but clearly Apple forms a large part of many people's daily lives, and Siri, therefore?
One of the other things that I wanted to focus on—. Samuel Kurtz has already raised many of these issues. I do very warmly welcome the partnership on Duolingo. That's a key app, and I do think that as we revive and normalise the use of the Welsh language, ensuring that all of these apps are available will be important too. We've talked about standards previously, in relation to banking and so on, but there are so many barriers now. Almost all of our lives—every form and every helpline—is now online rather than face to face, so how will we, through the standards perhaps, ensure that there is that emphasis on technology, and how do we ensure that companies that previously were enthusiastic about the Welsh language when they had an individual available ensure that those services can be as easily provided through technology, so that the Welsh language can be used on a day-to-day basis, because it's becoming increasingly more difficult, in my view, to use the Welsh language? Where we have all this investment and so much to celebrate, as I said, why then do we find it sometimes more difficult to use the Welsh language? So, can I ask, how are we going to work with those organisations that are increasingly pushing us towards technology, to ensure that this work does progress, so that we all reach the aim of normalising the use of the Welsh language, but also to make that easy?

Jeremy Miles AC: That's a fair point. In terms of the questions asked by Heledd Fychan—. It's resources that we are creating here, which are useful in terms of the work that technology developers, on the whole, can do. There are elements that are public facing, but many of the resources involve language infrastructure. I just want to recognise—. I've talked about Bangor University's work in my statement, but also the University of South Wales, Cardiff, Aberystwyth and Lancaster have also been involved in elements of this work, so there is an established network of very enthusiastic people working on this on the academic side. But I also want to recognise the work that a broad range of volunteers are doing, as in all technological areas, and that work is a completely natural part of this development landscape as well, so I want to recognise their role in disseminating the message too.
One of things that we've been clear about in terms of the principle of this, in order that we can promote in a way that does encourage other innovative developments, is that we do license for free, so the investment that we're making is creating material that we can license for free to the world, so that that can encourage innovation, and that's something that I'm very proud of. It's an important investment, but at the end of the day, to provide this openly is the way to ensure progress in this area.
In terms of a new plan or new scheme, I haven't decided yet whether a new plan is the right decision. At the end of the day, my starting point is that we need the activity to continue, certainly, and maybe prioritising that rather than making another plan is the best thing to do, given that the principles are very clear in the first plan and the relationships and the network of relationships have been established by now. So, I do think that building on that is the most productive thing to do, but I am keeping that under a watching brief, and resources have been earmarked for allowing us to do that in the future, so the work certainly is not coming to an end.
Heledd Fychan asked about Siri. We're not yet in a position to be able to do that. To develop that kind of technology, you need a significant range of linguistic data. Developers in the field require tens, if not hundreds of thousands of hours of data before they can create that kind of technology, and at the moment we have about 200 hours of relevant data in the Welsh language. That's completely normal for a minority language, internationally, so it's not unexpected, but it is a challenge. That's why we've prioritised linguistic banking—increasing that—and, in the end, that will enable that to happen.
In terms of Duolingo, that is important. Of course, the experience of people using Duolingo, on the whole, hasn't changed. For nearly all users, the experience is exactly the same, and they've agreed to have a discussion with us on a continuing basis. If we did decide that further development was needed, well, we do have dialogue to be able to discuss that with them, so that's constructive.
In terms of the apps, I just want to say, regarding the use of everyday technology, if you like, Bangor University has a chatbot called Macsen that is available through the medium of Welsh. So, there is an opportunity to develop further from that kind of development. We also made the Welsh interface of Office365 the default in Welsh-medium schools, and that has meant, overnight, that the use of that is now completely natural, and there's no need to make that specific choice. And I think that that kind of thing does show how we can make progress. At theend of the day, people do become accustomed to it very quickly, if you make the decision to do it. So, there are opportunities to do that in other ways as well.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you, Minister. I'm very pleased to see this report. I'm delighted that you've published it, and that you have made the statement that you've made this afternoon. I warmly welcome it. Like Heledd, I am very eager to know when I'll be able to communicate through the medium of Welsh with Alexa and Siri, and I would like to know if—. You have answered a previous question, but I would like to know if you have a timetable for that additional development work that needs to be done in order to complete the process.
But I'm also eager to understand how AI is going to change the way you develop Welsh language policy, because it's extremely important that we do look at future developments for the Welsh language and ensure that the Welsh language is part of those developments, and also that the Welsh language is part of the developments undertaken by these global multinationals that we've been discussing, but the way we do this is also important to me. I'm very eager that we should focus on open-source technology rather than technologies that are closed or restricted, and I would like to know what the Government's stance on that is.
And then, how does the Government collaborate with large companies and businesses to ensure that apps are available through the medium of Welsh? I use an iPhone, for example, and the operating system is almost wholly available through the medium of Welsh, so I use the Welsh language every day there. But when I go into the apps on the phone, I have to turn to English, so I would like to ensure that we can have a Welsh language environment or digital landscape where we can use the Welsh language all the time.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you for those questions. In terms of the work with Alexa and Siri and Android and so forth, the next challenge, and we're already working on it, is to create the bank of hundreds of thousands of hours of data. That's what we need to do now, and we have quite a long journey before we reach that aim, just because of the size of the Welsh language compared to the international languages that are used most often. But that work is already ongoing to collect more data, and that work feeds into the resources that we're funding, such as Macsen, which I mentioned, which is Bangor University's chatbot, but also to external resources. Alun Davies asked how we're collaborating with these companies. There are external resources, such as Amazon's MASSIVE dataset, which is a parallel dataset of about a million sayings, which lies behind what feeds into the Alexa system, so we have that relationship already.
I agree entirely with him that there's a great opportunity here in terms of AI. That's part of the reason why we're funding Bangor University to build on Macsen and work with OpenAI to see how the chatbot that they have, namely GPT-4, can process the Welsh language. That's then a major step forward in terms of provision, and importantly provision in terms of apps. My mobile phone has been set to the Welsh language, but, similar to his experience, when I look at an app, it's not in Welsh, but I anticipate that, when we're able to grow this opportunity of using Welsh through ChatGPT and so forth, that will be easier to do.
Just to say, finally, I do agree entirely with him that open licensing is the way ahead here. That's what's expected in this area, and that will ensure that we can continue to innovate.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, Minister.

8. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership: HeartUnions Week

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 8 is next, a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership on HeartUnions Week. I call on the Deputy Minister to make the statement—Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you. Last week, trade unions across Wales and the UK celebrated HeartUnions Week, an annual event that showcases the vital work of trade unions.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Welsh Government support for the trade union movement is driven by our firm belief that trade unions are fundamental to fair work. The trade union movement has shaped who I am, and I'm proud to be part of a Government that values the contributions the labour movement has made and continues to make to all of our lives. We believe being in a trade union is the best way to protect rights at work, improve pay, terms and conditions, and ensure worker voice is heard. We are proud to promote the role of trade unions and the important work they do in making work and workplaces fairer, safer and more secure.
Every day, unions across Wales play a critical role in supporting workers, whether championing equality, offering training opportunities, promoting health and safety in the workplace, or fighting for a just transition. The Welsh Government supports this work in a variety of ways, and I want to take the opportunity to highlight some of these today. First of all, the Wales unions learning fund, or WULF as we know it, is a long-standing programme that supports trade union-led adult learning in the workplace. WULF is a programme-for-government commitment with strong links into our employability and skills plan and our ambitions for fair work. We have supported this flagship programme for over 20 years. In the last year alone, this has supported around 12,000 workers from across Wales on their learning journey. It is an excellent example of how the Government, trade unions and employers can work together to upskill the workforce.
I am also particularly proud of our Unions and the World of Work project in secondary schools across Wales. This has been developed in social partnership with the Welsh Government, Wales TUC, trade unions and teachers. The project supports the delivery of careers and work-related experience, a cross-cutting theme of the Curriculum for Wales. In making available a range of resources on Hwb—our online education portal—we are collectively supporting the next generation of workers, employers and potential entrepreneurs to have a better understanding of employment rights, the role of trade unions and the impact of collective voice in addressing issues in the workplace and beyond. We remain committed to these programmes because they are essential to our shared vision for fairness and progression at work. Everyone deserves to know how to access their rights and how to use their voice in the world of work.
As work continues to evolve, so must we, ensuring that we have a just transition as we strive to achieve our net-zero aspirations and make responsible use of artificial intelligence in the workplace. The worker voice must be heard and represented throughout that evolution. It is why, as a Government, we are committed to raising awareness of the role of trade unions. It is why we do not shy away from promoting the benefits of joining a trade union, and it's why we encourage employers to provide trade union access, so that workers have the opportunity and choice to be represented collectively.
We're clear that trade unions are the legitimate voice of workers in the workplace, whether that be in the public, private or voluntary sector, and being part of a trade union is the most effective way to ensure the needs of workers are heard. That is the foundation of our social partnership model. Our approach in Wales stands in stark contrast to the anti-trade-union actions and rhetoric we have seen from the UK Government under five Prime Ministers since 2010. While they have legislated to restrict the rights of workers and trade unions, we have passed legislation to put social partnership into law. Our Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023 was passed into law in May 2023, putting social partnership on a statutory footing. Its duties will commence on 1 April this year, but we already have first-hand evidence of the positive impact effective social partnership working can have on individual workers and wider sectors alike.
Employers, trade unions and the Government have worked together successfully though the social care fair work forum to implement the real living wage in the sector and ensure our registered social care workforce and personal assistants have the dignity of earning a living wage. In the retail sector, social partnership working has seen the establishment of a retail forum, the introduction of a retail action plan and a commitment from the Government, trade unions and employers to work together collectively to address key issues facing the sector.
The workforce partnership council, a partnership of the trade unions, public sector employers and the Welsh Government, continues to progress a work plan that includes considering key issues like workplace equality and the use of artificial intelligence in the public sector. More recently, we have established the workforce rights and responsibilities forum, where our successful model of social partnership working will drive forward its aims to improve collective understanding of the workplace rights and responsibilities.
Trade unions have played a crucial role in each of these groups and will continue to do so, not least as members of the social partnership council, which met for the first time on 1 February. This first meeting of the council represents a major step forward in our commitment to this Welsh way of working and making it part of our devolved DNA.
The interventions and programmes that I've highlighted today are each designed to bring about an improvement in trade union access, presence and coverage in Wales, all of them contributing to our national indicator measuring the proportion of employees whose pay is set by collective bargaining. I am proud to be a trade unionist and I'm proud to promote trade union access and membership. And I am proud of what we have done, and can do, through our progressive social partnership approach. Diolch.

Joel James AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement today. This might surprise you, but I believe that trade unions can be a positive force for standing up for workers' rights and even for helping governments understand some of the nuanced implications of their policies.
You mentioned in your statement improving access to trade unions. However, I believe you have missed the problem in that the majority of people in this country see trade unions as not primarily fighting for workers' rights and achieving better working conditions, but instead are primarily seeking to exert undue political influence over the democratic processes of this country, such as we have so blatantly seen with Unite suspiciously changing its rules in such a way that only their preferred candidate, the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth, would appear on the ballot paper. Whilst only 11 trade unions openly support the Labour Party in this way, we have to be mindful that it certainly sours public perception against all trade unions, and this is clearly shown by the fall in numbers of people actually joining one, which, in 2022, fell to a record low.
The simple fact, Deputy Minister, is that, as the primary financial donors of the Labour Party, trade unions have no shame in publicly threatening to withhold funds if their demands are not met and, as such, their position themselves as puppet masters to the Labour Party, where they can indirectly control the levers of government in their favour—often, I should add, against the good of the country. Whilst Labour Members here may snort at this fact—and I can hear them, Llywydd—the reality is that many people who would likely benefit from trade union membership do not want to be supporters of such organisations and so do not join. The Welsh Government's shameless begging in this Chamber, Deputy Minister, for people to join a trade union falls on deaf ears, because the reality is that a lot of people do not want to be so directly associated with a political party, or support a trade union's extreme left-wing political ideology. Indeed, some union rule books, such as those of Unite and Unison, just two examples, clearly state that the union will not support—[Interruption.]—clearly state that the union will not support any political party other than the Labour Party, which clearly shows how hypocritical these unions are. They profess that they want inclusivity and, as you remarked in your statement today, want to ensure every worker's voice is heard, yet, shamelessly, some unions disregard any member who dares to have a different political opinion to them or to the Labour Party manifesto. Surely, Deputy Minister, trade union members should be encouraged to engage fully with different political parties at all levels. And do you agree with me, Deputy Minister—[Interruption.]—that this would benefit the collective cause of helping to improve the understanding of the challenges workers face across the whole political spectrum, more than just having only one political narrative? With all this in mind, Deputy Minister, do you think it is right that any trade union should have such open political bias that it excludes people who do not support their left-wing agenda, and that it damages the reputation of all trade unions, even though many are not affiliated with the Labour Party?
From a personal perspective, many trade unions have a good understanding of the needs of workers in their industries, and it is right that workers have a platform to collectively hold to account employers for poor working conditions and pay. Indeed, I'm extremely proud of the Conservative Party's record in this field. We have a long tradition of supporting workers' rights and working with trade unions to help the UK workforce. Not only have our reforms democratised trade unions by ensuring that every members is balloted, we have legitimised trade unions in law and we have outlawed the operation of closed-shop unions. We have even introduced groundbreaking labour reforms, such as ensuring that workers and employers are equal before the law in labour contracts, that workers are given contracts of employment and paid holiday, and those workers with disabilities are fully protected and can never be discriminated against in the field of employment.
The recent UK Government legislation, the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Act 2023, is another good example of how the Conservatives have led the way in helping to protect the most vulnerable in society during a strike, whilst also allowing those striking workers to be confident that their industrial action is not harmful to the public, and reduces the likelihood of a backlash against them. Whilst the Labour benches were up in arms at the time, I wonder, Deputy Minister, if, upon reflection, you can now see the benefits of this legislation to both trade unions and the workers that they represent.
Finally, Deputy Minister, I note that you have made no mention of farming unions. However, you do mention the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023, which, of course, has a social partnership council. Yet, there are no farming unions in its trade union representation, neither are there any employee members representing the farming industry. Deputy Minister, why is this the case, and why is this Government not interested in helping Welsh farmers? I believe, Llywydd, that the Welsh Government talk warm words about workers' rights but will do its very best to remove any voices that oppose it, which is why it has completely ignored farmers from its exclusive talking shop. Deputy Minister, is this because you know that farmers are gearing up for major industrial action against this Welsh Labour Government for its continuous and appalling record of anti-rural policies, which are crippling the industry, or is this because they are not affiliated to the Labour Party—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: You're going to have to bring your questions to an end now.

Joel James AS: Thank you, Llywydd. They're not affiliated to the Labour Party, so do not even warrant a thought or mention. Llywydd, in the spirit of last week's HeartUnions Week, we must be mindful to remember that unions should not be in the business of blackmailing governments or the nation, and should aim to be inclusive and embrace the diversity of political thought that workers in the United Kingdom have. I'm sure that even the most blinkered trade unionists would see—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: You're—

Joel James AS: The last sentence, Llywydd.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Okay, let's—

Joel James AS: The most blinkered trade unionists would see that this would ultimately be a positive for workers and workers' rights. Thank you.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That was your last sentence. The Minister to respond.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Don't worry, I'll be much more concise in my response. So, Joel James asked me can I see—[Interruption.] I don't think you'll need to, don't worry.
Joel James asked me if I can see the benefit of the Conservative Government's anti-trade union legislation. No. And do I agree with Joel James's points and perspective on trade unions and the role they play in supporting working people? No.

Sioned Williams AS: I grew up in a household where union membership was seen as a natural part of being employed. My parents were both members of teaching unions, and their fathers, both miners, were part of the trade union movement that fought for fairness, safety and dignity in the Rhymney valley coalfield. My great grandfather was blacklisted for his part in the 1926 strike and had to then sell insurance door to door to make a living. I grew up in this tradition, and so I suppose I assumed that everyone who worked was automatically a member of a union, and, when I became an employee myself, I saw that wasn't the case, partly because of the way unions had been denigrated and badmouthed by both Thatcherites and those on the right of the Labour Party who would continue with her neo-liberal economic positions, and this has left its mark on our workplaces.
I was a committee member of the Swansea University University and College Union, although they knew, Joel James, that I was an active member of Plaid Cymru. I was fortunate to work with experienced and principled colleagues, such as Professor Simon Hoffman and Howard Moss, to help support my university colleagues in the face of management actions that were detrimental to their well-being and employment rights. And since being elected, I've supported the action taken by numerous unions in Wales against employers, both private and public—that powerful collective voice calling out and opposing insecure contracts, unfair pay settlements, threats to pensions, bad working conditions and, of course, redundancies. I’m proud that my Plaid Cymru colleagues have supported these actions, standing with them on picket lines and amplifying their calls in this place.
Do you agree, Deputy Minister, that the role of unions to stand up for workers and demand fairness is more important than ever for Welsh people? The recently published TUC Wales report, ‘Future of Work and Devolution in Wales’, by Professor Jean Jenkins, has highlighted what work needs to be done to ensure that our nation develops a clear and distinct environment for work and Welsh workers’ rights. Wages and productivity are lower in Wales than almost everywhere else in the UK, and the TUC has reported that major levels of labour market discrimination persist for black and minority ethnic workers, for women and for disabled people, with one in nine workers in Wales in insecure work. They found that labour rights are weakly enforced, with just £10.50 being spent on enforcement for each worker, and the capacity of our inspectorate bodies ranks twenty-seventh out of 33 OECD countries.
Considering the stance that you set out in your statement, do you agree that the solution should be to back devolving employment rights? What’s the Government’s response to the findings and recommendations outlined in this report, and what consideration has the Welsh Government given to the devolution of employment law? One of the specific calls was for the Wales TUC to establish a working group to examine the practicalities of the devolution of employment rights. What are your thoughts on this, and how will you be supporting this work if you do?
You said in your statement that you’re clear that trade unions are the legitimate voice of workers in the workplace, so I’d also like to know your thoughts, Deputy Minister, on the view of the Fire Brigades Union that employees were not consulted or listened to, and members have been let down by the appointment of Stuart Millington as the interim chief officer at South Wales Fire and Rescue Service, which has now, of course, resulted in a vote of no confidence by the union. How will the Government ensure that the union’s voice is heard and respected by the commissioners you’ve appointed as their important work commences? Diolch.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I'll address the final points that you made in your contribution first, before coming to the broader points you made. I'm obviously aware of the position of the FBU and the motion that they passed. Obviously, the appointment was made by the four commissioners, and it's an interim appointment to fill that gap when the current chief left, which meant they needed to fill that operational requirement. Actually, the interim position was via a secondment, so on that basis, there wouldn't be the normal process of consultation. But I'm aware that the commissioners have met with the FBU and there will be ongoing consultation and engagement as they move forward to recruit the more substantive post. I think they all see the value, too, of not just working with the FBU but the other unions within the fire service, which represent operational staff and other staff as well.
Just on that, when I came into this post, and my very eclectic portfolio—as well as fair work and social partnership, it does cover fire and rescue services—I made sure we set up a mechanism to bring employers, the trade union reps and the workforce reps in that sector together through the fire and rescue social partnership forum. That includes the broad range of worker representative bodies. And I do actually meet, as well as Welsh representatives, regularly with the general secretary Matt Wrack, as well.
But some of the things you were saying at the start of your contribution really had resonance with me as well. I actually should declare I am also a daughter of two teachers, who joined a teaching union the day that they got their first job as a teacher, and it was very much my granddad on my mum’s side that influenced who I am today, and I think probably was the precursor to me going to work in the trade union movement. He worked in Shotton steelworks, and I remember his talk of collectivism and solidarity and the fight that they had on their hands back then in the 1980s, which devastated our area. My granddad actually didn’t go on that historic, horrible day that still bears the record of the single biggest number of mass redundancies in one day; he went a little later. He has passed away now, but I still have as part of his things his old union card, which was then UCATT, because he was a carpenter by trade, but also a very blunt typewritten letter that was like, ‘Thanks for your decades of service. Goodbye’. I paraphrase, but that was the point. But they are things that I’ve always kept as a reminder of him and what he meant to me, and the values that he passed on to me as well.
I think it brings us to the point you made—the work that we’re doing in terms of the Unions and the World of Work project and what we can do to support the growth of the trade union movement, but also the understanding of it in Wales. I think that's not just for us. I think I can get away with saying it as a trade unionist, but the world of work has changed, so the way that trade unions are organised needs to change as well. We have heavily populated workplaces, but, actually, like you say, people are on insecure contracts, people are working in disparate workforces. So, actually, there is good work going on, but I think there's a role for us too in Government around how we can support that to grow and give them the platform to do that as well. And, too, around the powerful collective voice, and I agree that that is the best mechanism to drive fairness and equality in the workplace.
Finally, you refer to the Wales TUC commission and 'The Future of Work and Devolution in Wales'. I think, whilst there's not been a formal response from the Welsh Government, it's a really, really good report, which really sets a platform for us to have a discussion around. One of the things we would say around the devolution of further rights—. It's probably above my pay grade right now to commit to anything such as that, but one of the things I would say is that it really has to be done in social partnership too. One of the conversations I've had previously with trade union partners is that it could bring opportunities, but it brings challenges as well, so it's better to work those things through together. But there is some other really good stuff in there too, in that report, and some of the things around enforcement are things we've started to try and progress through our workplace rights and responsibilities forum. Because whilst we don't have all those levers around enforcement in Wales now, actually it does offer us a look at how we can do more with what we do have, but also better those connections between the UK-based agencies and the ones that we have in Wales.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you for your statement, Deputy Minister. I know the profound impact being a trade unionist has had on you personally, and also within my own political life. The HeartUnions Week is an important opportunity for us all to recognise and reflect on the important contribution trade unions make to public and civil life. I was particularly struck with your statement when you referenced the Unions and the World of Work project in secondary schools across Wales. For too long, the political agenda of the right-wing media and the right-wing UK Tory Government has sought to demonise trade unions and the trade union movement. This was exemplified by the recent BBC Two documentary on the miners' strike, and its active archive coverage. It's still an issue today from our right-wing media, such as so-called GB News. So, it's imperative that future generations of Welsh students gain a better understanding of employment rights, the role of trade unions and the profound role of a collective voice in the workplace.
On Saturday, I marched in the streets of Newport city centre with Welsh Labour Gwent colleagues, and the trade unions that represent the steelworkers of Llanwern. So, we know, Deputy Minister, that, together, workers, communities and societies are stronger. And we also know that, left only to the unfettered ravages of capitalism, people are expendable to the greed of the bottom line of profit, with little consideration of the rights of those at the base of that triangle. Deputy Minister, how can the Unions and the World of Work programme be further expanded so more Welsh children can be empowered and enriched by this participative educational programme, which empowers all in society?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch, Rhianon Passmore, for your contribution and recognising the role HeartUnions Week has in terms of promoting what trade unions do, not just in the workplace, but in Wales as well. I always like to say that a trade union is not just for HeartUnions Week, it's for life. And I think the point you make around the Unions and the World of Work pilot project is really important. It's on a pilot scale at the moment, but it's something that we would hope to see rolled out as well. And if Members are interested, we probably can circulate some details, because I have had conversations elsewhere and people now will think there's somebody in a school near them that would be interested in getting involved and running something. Perhaps we could circulate that. If you are interested, get in touch and I can make sure you have those details to give to any interested schools in your area. You talk about the power of protest as well, and that collectivism, that coming together in the face of adversity, and we certainly saw that on the streets of Newport and Port Talbot at the weekend.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Deputy Minister, I appreciate your thoroughly comprehensive response to my Welsh Conservative colleague Joel James, but there was one point that wasn't touched upon in your response, and it was that of the farming unions. Given the current situation in rural Wales with the consultation on the sustainable farming scheme, can I ask that you implore the two First Minister candidates to meet with the farming unions as quickly as possible to fully understand and appreciate the seriousness of the situation that's in front of them?
I think it's great that the two Ministers were with Port Talbot steelworkers last week. It would be great—should there be a protest from farmers in the vicinity at some point in the future—if they would address the farming unions, because I think it's imperative that what is going on in rural Wales at the moment is understood by the two potential First Ministers. Because if things continue as they are, either of them will be inheriting a right bin fire with the relationship between this Government and rural Wales at the moment.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank Sam Kurtz for his contribution? It was bizarre to bump into you in another Parliament just yesterday as well. But on the point you make, I think my colleagues who are candidates for a certain position did meet with a delegation who were there at the weekend, and I understand both have a commitment to follow that up with meetings as well. I represent a fairly rural constituency, and I might not always agree on everything, but I do make sure that I have those meetings. And recently, not so long ago, earlier this month, I went on a farm visit and I'm always keen to do more. But I'm just going to pick up on one point. You may feel I'm being pedantic, but whilst the National Farmers Union and the Farmers Union of Wales have 'union' in their name, they are essentially representatives of employers according to our agricultural advisory panel. But I just wanted to make that little point.

Luke Fletcher AS: The last two years, I think, have shown the importance of trade unions. And they've also shown us, of course, that there is wider support amongst the general public across the piece for striking workers, and that's despite, of course, the best efforts of the Tories and their mates on Fleet Street.
I wanted to take the opportunity to highlight non-unionised workplaces and what the Welsh Government might be able to do to help unionise those workplaces. What I mean by those workplaces is those sorts of workplaces you might find in the retail sector, in social care, in hospitality and in the wider gig economy. When I was in the hospitality sector, Unite was my trade union, and I know Unite Hospitality has done a lot of work and made some serious inroads into that sector. But how can the Welsh Government help support that work to unionise non-unionised workplaces?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thanks, Luke Fletcher, for your contribution and for making the good point about how we actually spread that kind of union protection and support in those workplaces that probably have been traditionally harder to reach by their very nature or perhaps how they operate as well. And I should say that my first job was actually in McDonald's, which wasn't necessarily the—[Interruption.] I tell you, Hefin, my cooking was so bad I wasn't allowed to work in the kitchen, so I had to be a hostess on the front desk. But, you know, it did teach me some valuable lessons about working in that sector and working in retail as well.
One of the things we've started doing with our retail forum is something, I think, I'd be keen to look at to see, actually, how we could do more with hospitality as well. Because it is often a younger workforce, people from a black and ethnic minority background, so I think we need to make sure that we can reach those. And actually it's not just about protecting people and helping and supporting them with their rights at work; if people go into those jobs, perhaps whilst they're studying, it's actually capturing that next generation of trade unionists before they go on to the wider world of work as well.

Jack Sargeant AC: Like the Minister and many of us here in the Senedd I'm proud to be a trade unionist. We must not forget that the rights we take for granted in the workplace today were fought for and won by our trade union colleagues. And that struggle continues, Presiding Officer.
More than one million people in the UK are on zero-hours contracts. As UK Labour rightly pointed out today, working people across Wales and the UK have been badly let down by the Tories' failure to protect them from insecure work. And I know the Welsh Conservatives either don't want to understand that or deliberately misunderstand the reality, but that is the reality for my constituents, and it's the reality for all of their constituents as well.
Minister, do you agree with me that the best way to celebrate HeartUnions Week would be to deliver a UK Labour Government that would work in partnership with unions like my own, Unite and Community, and that together we could end the scourge of zero-hours contracts and really deliver for working people?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank my colleague and constituency neighbourJack Sargeant for his contribution. I absolutely agree that the rights that we perhaps sometimes take for granted today were not only long called for but hard fought for as well over decades and decades. And yes, I absolutely agree with you that what we need is legislation to make surewhat I would call—. So, the new deal for workers is an excellent proposal, and I definitely want to see that delivered within the 100 days, as a promise of the next UK Labour Government. And when I've been talking at events, what I see too is that baseline that underpins what we're trying to do in Wales with our social partnership approach and really allows it to flourish.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: One of the successes of our trade unions over the last 100 years has been the ability to secure better pay, and this collective bargaining power has proven to be vitally important. But as part of his pitch to become First Minister, the current First Minister, Mark Drakeford, drew from this tradition and said that, as one of his dozen proposals, and I quote, he would
'Take forward the Fair Work Commission and the steps we need to take to make Wales a fair work nation—payment of the real living wage in all companies receiving public funds as a first step.'
Of course, it is Government funding that pays for front-line homelessness support workers via the HSG, the housing support grant, but even though the current First Minister said that all companies receiving public funds would have to pay the real living wage, the truth is that the funding provided by the Welsh Government and the statutory requirements placed on providers is simply not enough, leading to 42 per cent of homelessness workers being paid less than the living wage and three quarters paid less than the real living wage. So, in the Deputy Minister's response, I'd be grateful if she could say if she believes that the homelessness workers should join an union and withhold their labour until the Government provides a fair settlement. And should the sector use their collective bargaining power and challenge this Government for its failure to properly fund the services and the hardworking homelessness support workers?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch Mabon ap Gwynfor for that contribution and for recognising the role that collective bargaining plays within workplaces. Clearly, we want to get to a point in Wales where levels of collective bargaining are higher again. Actually, one of the things I would say is that our support staff don't even have collective bargaining in this place either. So, I think there are ways in which we need to work collaboratively to ensure that that kind of principle, that approach, is applied right across sectors and right across institutions.

Sarah Murphy AS: This year marks the fortieth anniversary of the miners' strikes that ripped apart our communities. This was in the face of, according to unearthed memos of her head of policy unit, Margaret Thatcher saying to her Government that they should neglect no opportunity to erode trade union membership. But because of unity and solidarity in our union movement with our Labour Party, trade unions are still going strong here in Wales, as we saw at Llanwern and Port Talbot demonstrations to save our steel industry on the weekend with Members from across the Chamber.
I am incredibly proud to be a member of a trade union. It's about people having your back, it's about having a family around you, it's about standing up for your hard-fought rights together. It is a shame, but I suppose unsurprising, that there are some people in this Chamber who don't get that. They still don't get that, they still perpetuate this narrative that the unions mean, 'Do your job, stay in your lane—how dare you organise and get involved in democracy and politics, how dare you be affiliated to the Labour Party, a party that you founded to stand up for workers' rights and not just take the status quo.' So, Deputy Minister, do you agree with me that it is actually vital that Governments and trade unions continue to work together for our constituents and workers' rights? Diolch.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you so much for that passionate and committed contribution. Sarah, I know how committed a trade unionist you are as well. And I absolutely agree with you that we need to work together with trade union movements, with trade union colleagues, to actually take forward and support workers' rights, not just within our workplaces, but, actually, I believe trade unions are of the benefit of Wales as well. We know that we only achieve by working together. And it's right that you reflect on the fortieth anniversary of the miners' strike that's coming up very shortly. I have very vague recollections—I'm just saying 'very vague', I'm not that old—but my uncle Tony was actually on strike at Point of Ayr in north Wales. My mum likes to tease me that when we went to visit I actually ate some of the biscuits that had come out of the strike fund. I must have been offered them, because I was only about two, but that stays with us, and it stays with families and it stays with communities. And whilst it might have been a really awful time, I think it also spurs you on too to fight for the future, to continue to work collectively in that spirit of solidarity, those shared values that we know make a difference to all of us and to all of our communities.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, as a lifelong trade union member myself, I'm pleased to have the statement marking HeartUnions Week, or 'love unions' week, as I think it really is, there. I just want to speak here, contrary to what we've heard from some of our colleagues to the left but not the political left of me in defence of unions and, indeed, of their links with the labour movement and the Labour Party. Unions: the people who brought you the two-day weekend; the limits on working hours; the minimum wage; equality in pay; parental leave; the right to negotiations on pay and conditions; legally binding employment contracts; and increases in annual leave to 28 days—many of those during Labour Governments, from Barbara Castle to the last Blair and Brown Governments. Yet, around the world—and this is where I want to ask whether you agree with me, Minister—the 2023 International Trade Union Confederation global rights survey shows that the violations of workers' rights have reached record highs. And we know that union organisers are murdered every single day for standing up for workers' rights. Does she agree with me that the fight must continue, here in the UK and internationally, and in the words of Joe Hill, the songwriter and Wobblies—the Industrial Workers of the World—member: 'Don't mourn—organize!'?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for that very fitting final contribution for today's statement? Absolutely, dwi'n cytuno. I agree with everything he said—that actually, yes, trade unions are important to support workers here in Wales, but it's absolutely crucial, as part of those values, as part of that spirit of collectivism, that it reaches beyond our shores, and it's about international solidarity and support as well.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, Deputy Minister.

9. The Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) Regulations 2024

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 9 is next, the Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) Regulations 2024. The Minister to move the motion—Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM8486 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) Regulations 2024 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 23January 2024.

Motion moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: I move the motion to approve the Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) Regulations 2024. The regulations result in a non-domestic rating multiplier for 2024-25 of 0.562.
On 19 December I announced that we would limit the increase in the multiplier for 2024-25 at a recurring cost to the Welsh budget of £18 million—a move that benefits every ratepayer in Wales, except the almost 50 per cent who already pay no rates at all. The multiplier will increase by 5 per cent as opposed to the default increase of 6.7 per cent in line with the consumer price index inflation. This is the maximum level of support available using all of the consequential funding received from the UK Government's announcement in relation to the 2024-25 multiplier. Alongside the decision to limit the increase in the multiplier, we're providing a generous package of reliefs. Through these reliefs, almost half of all ratepayers, including thousands of small businesses, pay no rates at all. When partial support is included, ratepayers in more than 80 per cent of properties will benefit from relief in 2024-25. That equates to 104,000 properties across Wales, or, to put it another way, less than 20 per cent of properties will attract full rates.
In total we're providing £384 million in NDR support next year. Every ratepayer will benefit from this package. Our support strikes a balance between supporting businesses and other ratepayers in Wales, particularly given the pressures they've been facing, and the need to maintain a stable revenue stream for local services, upon which we all depend. This support is fully funded by the Welsh Government. I'm grateful to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for its consideration of the regulations and I ask Members to approve the regulations today.

Peter Fox AS: I'm glad the Welsh Government is finally introducing powers to implement a split multiplier through the local government finance Bill—something that we've called for for a long time. However, what remains concerning is the fact that all businesses here in Wales pay a higher rate than businesses in both England and Scotland and that's even with the 5 per cent increase, rather than the 6.7 per cent CPI figure. The proposed changes will see Welsh businesses facing the highest multiplier at 56.2. It's a shame that option 3, as described in the explanatory memorandum, to freeze the multiplier at last year's rate of 53.5p hadn't been chosen, recognising how difficult things are for our businesses following recent years. And to make matters worse, as we know, Welsh Government has pulled support from businesses in the hospitality, leisure and retail sectors here in Wales, ensuring that pubs and restaurants and shops will pay almost double the rate of business rates as their counterparts in England. So, in light of this, Llywydd, we cannot support these regulations that maintain such high business rates here in Wales.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: While we welcome the decision to cap the increase to the non-domestic rate multiplier in Wales below CPI inflation, this needs to be contextualised against the substantial cut in business relief from 75 per cent to 40 per cent as part of the upcoming budget. Having already been badly hit by the pandemic's economic fallout, the threat of widespread closures, especially in the retail and hospitality sector, now looms large. As we've been emphasising ever since the publication of the draft budget in December, we would urge the Welsh Government to do everything it can to fully support businesses during this period of acute financial hardship. This should include having sufficient Senedd and committee time for far-reaching decisions like this to be debated and scrutinised in full. While we have been discussing the general state of the budget over the past few weeks, it's a regrettable that this specific and highly significant aspect of the draft budget scrutiny has been squeezed because of time constraints.
I'd also be grateful if the Minister could elaborate on the rationale for setting the increase to the multiplier to 5 per cent. What leeway did the Government have in this respect, and was there any consideration of limiting the increase even further? Diolch.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: TheMinister for finance to respond.

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm grateful to both colleagues for their contributions today, and I remember we had a similar contribution from the Conservatives in the debate on the multiplier last year. I just want to be really, really clear that if this motion isn't passed today, the multiplier will rise in line with CPI, and it will be 6.7 per cent, as opposed to 5 per cent. So, any vote other than supporting the motion today would actually require businesses to pay more in Wales. Again, we had a similar debate last year, so the choice for colleagues is to support a 5 per cent increase to the multiplier or a 6.7 per cent increase to the multiplier. Those are the only two possible outcomes from the vote that we're having today.
And then to answer that specific question in relation to the 5 per cent—5 per cent is the figure that you arrive at when you use every penny of the additional funding that came through as a consequence of the UK Government's decision in relation to the multiplier in England. So, we used every penny of that, and that resulted in the 5 per cent.
To reflect on some of the other points, I think I did make reference to most of them in my opening remarks, but I particularly want to emphasise again that 50 per cent of businesses in Wales will pay no rates at all next year thanks to the support that we provide. Our package of support is worth more than a third of a billion pounds to businesses in rate support, and less than one in five will actually be paying their full liability, because we have such a wide range of general support available.
Now, of course we understand the pressures that businesses are under at the moment, but we'll all be very familiar with the really tough choices that we had to make across Government in setting the budget this year. As a result, we have prioritised public services—the NHS in Wales will receive an increase of 4 per cent. In England it's 1 per cent, and that just speaks to the different choices that we've made as a Welsh Government. But, as I say, the package of support that we do provide is still comprehensive, and the choice this afternoon, Llywydd, is between a 5 per cent increase or a 6.7 per cent increase.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

10. The Official Statistics (Wales) (Amendment) Order 2024

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 10 is next, the Official Statistics (Wales) (Amendment) Order 2024. And I call on the Minister for finance to move the motion once again—Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM8485 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5, approves that the draft The Official Statistics (Wales) (Amendment) Order 2024 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 09 January 2024.

Motion moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I am pleased to introduce the Official Statistics (Wales) (Amendment) Order 2024. The power for Welsh Ministers to make the Order is in section 6 of the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 and requires approval by the Senedd. The purpose is to add the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research to the list of official statistics producers. This will provide assurances that statistics produced by the commission are trustworthy, high quality and of public value. The commission will become responsible for the funding, oversight and regulation of tertiary education in Wales. It will be responsible for existing official statistics transferring from the Welsh Government, as well as statistics currently published by the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales. The Order will enable the commission to publish statistics as official statistics when considered robust to do so. Work is in hand, with statisticians transferring to the organisation, to ensure this happens as quickly as possible.
Official statistics provide a window on our society, inform decision making and help hold public bodies to account. This Order ensures that the commission will provide high-quality, trustworthy statistics that will inform and shape the well-being of future generations, and I ask Members to support this Order.

Heledd Fychan AS: Whilst obviously welcoming the approach, HEFCW is not currently an official statistics body, so can I ask therefore what consultation has the Minister had with HEFCW or universities to identify and discuss the potential impacts or issues, including cost implications, of this change?

Rebecca Evans AC: I just want to reassure colleagues that there has been significant engagement by the chief statistician and her team in respect of the move to giving the new body the status of being the providers of official statistics, and the aim, really, is to ensure that those statistics go on being statistics that are robust. Especially in the context of the situation we find ourselves in today, when we have so much misinformation, I think robust statistics that everyone can rely on by a reputable source are extremely important.
And Llywydd, I was so keen to answer the question that I realise that I don't know if there are other speakers in the debate.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And I was so keen for you to answer the question, I didn't realise that there weren't any speakers other than you to respond. Yes, we were both too keen there.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection. Therefore the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

11. Debate: The Police Settlement 2024-25

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be a debate on the police settlement for 2024-25. The Minister for finance to move the motion—Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM8482 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, under Section 84H of the Local Government Finance Act 1988, approves the Local Government Finance Report (No. 2) 2024-25 (Final Settlement - Police and Crime Commissioners), which was laid in the Table Office on 31 January 2024.

Motion moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Today I'm presenting to the Senedd for its approval details of the Welsh Government's contribution to the core revenue funding for the four police and crime commissioners in Wales for 2024-25. The core funding for the police in Wales is delivered through a three-way arrangement involving the Home Office, the Welsh Government and council tax. As policing policy and operational matters are non-devolved, the overall funding picture is determined and driven by Home Office decisions.
We have maintained the established approach to setting and distributing the Welsh Government component, based on the principle of ensuring consistency and fairness across England and Wales. As outlined in my announcement on 31 January, the total unhypothecated revenue support for the police service in Wales for 2024-25 stands at £459.8 million. Despite the challenging financial position we face, the Welsh Government's contribution to this amount remains unchanged on last year's £113.5 million and it is this funding that you're being asked to approve today.
As in previous years, the Home Office has overlaid its needs-based formula with a floor mechanism. This means that, for 2024-25, PCCs across England and Wales will all receive an increase in funding of 2.054 per cent when compared with 2023-24, after including the in-year pay uplift for 2023-24 and before an adjustment for special branch funding. The Home Office will provide a top-up grant totalling £67.2 million to ensure that all four Welsh police forces meet the floor level.
The motion for today's debate is to agree the local government finance report for PCCs that has been laid before this Senedd. If approved, it will allow the commissioners to confirm their budgets for the next financial year, and I ask Members to support this motion.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Mark Isherwood AC: As we've heard, funding for the four Welsh police forces is delivered through a three-way arrangement involving the Home Office, Welsh Government and council tax, with the Home Office operating a needs-based formula with a floor mechanism to distribute funding across Welsh and English police forces and with the Welsh Government component based on consistency across England and Wales.
For 2024-25, the total core support for police forces in Wales will be £459.8 million. The Welsh Government's contribution to the settlement for Wales is £113.47 million, the same amount given in the 2023-24 settlement. Police forces across England and Wales will receive a funding boost of up to £287 million next year from the UK Government. The rise will take the funding total for policing in England and Wales up to £17.2 billion, and means that police and crime commissioners across the 43 police forces in England and Wales will receive an increase of up to £523 million from Government grants and precept income. Council tax police precept will rise by 4.69 per cent in north Wales, 6.2 per cent in Dyfed-Powys, 6.7 per cent in Gwent and by 8.69 per cent in south Wales.
On a related matter, the Wales Police Schools Programme, SchoolBeat.Cymru, is a collaboration of Welsh Government and Dyfed-Powys, Gwent, North Wales and South Wales Police, which creates the role of school police officers, a dedicated point of contact for every school in Wales. It delivers a nationally reviewed, bilingual curriculum of teacher-developed lessons for ages five to 16. They engage with all schools, including mainstream education, independent schools in Wales, schools supporting additional learning needs and alternative provision, including pupil referral units and education other than at school, as an agreed policy of the four police forces of Wales for responding to reports of incidents in schools and supporting and advising schools in a safeguarding capacity—basically, early intervention and prevention. However, it was confirmed to me, initially in written questions, that the Welsh Government will be withdrawing its match funding for the Wales police schools programme, which includes SchoolBeat, thereby removing a key early intervention and prevention programme and thereby stoking up costs for statutory services, including those the Welsh Government is responsible for. This is therefore another short-sighted decision by the Welsh Government, cutting a programme that is designed to prevent rather than cure, saving the public purse further down the line.
In March last year, the UK Government fulfilled its manifesto pledge and recruited 20,951 officers from funding for the police uplift programme, including 1,005 new police officers across Wales, ranging from 141 in Powys to 206 in both north Wales and Gwent and 452 in south Wales.Welsh Conservative policy also remains to increase funding for police community support officers each year.
The latest figures from the crime survey for England and Wales for the year ending June 2023 showed that total crime decreased by 10 per cent, mainly caused by decreases in fraud and criminal damage offences. This follows a long-term downward trend and recent falls since the beginning of the coronavirus pandemic, with total crime 18 per cent lower than the year ending March 2020. And as I learned when I visited the North West Regional Organised Crime Unit, an estimated 95 per cent or more of crime in north Wales operates on a cross-border, east-west basis and almost none on an all-Wales basis.
However, the Welsh Government is yet to explain why the Thomas commission report only makes one reference to cross-border criminality, despite the evidence presented to them. Unlike Scotland and Northern Ireland, Wales has a heavily populated cross-border area, with almost half the population in Wales living within 25 miles of England, and 90 per cent within 50 miles.
Given these operational and population realities, the Welsh Government must explain why it is devoting so much time and resource to devolution of policing to Wales when it is cutting key budgets elsewhere, especially when both the UK Conservative Government and the most senior Welsh Labour MP in Westminster, shadow Welsh Secretary Jo Stevens, have rejected fresh calls for the Welsh Government to be given control of policing and adult criminal justice. Diolch yn fawr.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: The police settlement for 2024-25 lays bare the extent to which 14 years of Tory-driven austerity has compromised the safety of our communities. Due to the severity of cuts imposed on police forces during the Cameron administration, it is only now that we're seeing a recovery in police numbers in Wales to roughly the same level as they were in 2010. And at a time when the spending power of the public finances is in such a ruinous state, the total uplift of less than £10 million for the Wales police grant in the next financial year, which represents a mere 2 per cent increase compared to last year, means that difficult spending decisions lie ahead for all four of our police forces.
For example, the Police and Crime Commissioner for South Wales has estimated that the force's budget has been eroded by £651 million in real terms over the last 12 years. Meanwhile, Dyfed-Powys and North Wales are having to contemplate savings of around £6 million and £7.5 million respectively over the next five years.
The detrimental impact of austerity is not just observable in financial figures alone. A recent Police Federation of England and Wales survey revealed that 97 per cent of responders said that their treatment by the Government, especially on funding, harmed their morale, but perhaps we shouldn't—

Mark Isherwood AC: Will you give way?

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I've got a lot to get through, sorry, Mark.
But perhaps we shouldn't be surprised that the Tory party, which has developed a persistent habit in recent years of breaking the rules, doesn't seem to see the value of investing in law and order. The consequence of this consistent underinvestment from Westminster is that council tax appears to have to foot an increasingly larger share of the costs. The police precept for each Welsh police force will increase during the next financial year by almost 9 per cent in the case of south Wales, which means that the precept now accounts for 47 per cent of the budget, compared to 34 per cent a decade ago. So, when the Conservative Members here complain about the hikes to council tax, they would do well to channel that anger towards their UK Government colleagues and call on them to properly fund Wales's police forces.
The Welsh Government also bears responsibility in this area. While the hand they've been dealt by the UK Government is unquestionably a poor one, it's nevertheless the case that the decision to cut £7.5 million from the police community support officer budget and freeze the planned recruitment programme will further stretch the resources of police forces. And I'd be grateful if the Minister could explain how the Government has been engaging with the respective police forces on the implications of the draft budget spending plans.
Finally, from a broader perspective, the challenging position in which our police forces find themselves is a reflection of how badly Wales is let down by a lack of devolved powers over policing, in stark contrast to the other devolved nations. In financial terms, this is highlighted by the false economy of spend-to-save models in a non-devolved context, which means that, despite the fact that around a third of total spending on justice in Wales comes from devolved or local government sources, any resultant savings derived from Welsh policy initiatives aren't returned to the Welsh Treasury. As was recommended by the Silk commission almost a decade ago, the case for rectifying this constitutional anomaly is compelling and long overdue, and yet it continues to fall on deaf ears amongst the UK Labour leadership, in yet another example of inherent unresponsiveness to the needs of Wales. I would therefore call on Labour Members to ask the shadow Secretary of State for Wales this simple question: why do you believe that the failing status quo is the best it gets for the Welsh people? Diolch.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Although this settlement does provide a general increase in funding, this isn't allocated on the basis of the individual needs of the forces. And, as Peredur Owen Griffiths said, it comes following a number of cuts over a period of a decade. In addition to the cuts to police funding, the police have also had to cope with trying to fill the large gap that's been left in our communities because of austerity policies.
According to South Wales Police, they receive a call every 13 minutes for an incident related to mental health. Of those incidents, only 4 per cent of the calls need the exercise of police powers—96 per cent of the calls, one every 13 minutes, relate to mental health issues. In addition, each and every one of us will have heard of police cars being used as ambulances to take people to hospitals, and also examples of people with severe mental health problems being held in police cells.

Rhys ab Owen AS: According to the Home Office, to ensure an average increase in cash for police services of 6 per cent, all the police and crime commissioners in England and Wales will need to increase their precepts by at least £13—[Inaudible.]—figure. In north Wales, the precept is increasing by £16; in Dyfed-Powys, £19; in Gwent, £25; and in south Wales by an eye-watering £28—a £28 increase to council taxes to the people of south Wales. It's unfair that, due to lack of proper funding by the Westminster Government, local residents, who have already paid for policing in their taxes, are being asked to yet again bear the brunt, especially during a cost-of-living crisis.
It also creates a strange postcode lottery, where the tax in Loughor will increase by almost double what it does across the estuary in Llanelli. While the current calculations take account of a few socioeconomic factors, the main detriment is population size.Why, then, are we using predictions—not data, predictions, not data—from 2013, to decide funding outcomes in 2024? This has been highlighted and criticised by the police federation for years, but it's still being used by the Welsh Government. If we are serious about the devolution of policing, we need to show greater care to the need of policing here in Wales.
As Peredur said, 93 per cent of Welsh police officers said that they don't feel respected by the Welsh Government. When you consider the number of cuts over the years to educational, community-orientated and preventative measures dealt with by the police, and the added complexity created by the jagged edge, it's easy to understand why they feel this way.
Vitally, this settlement fails to provide a forward-looking vision for policing in Wales. Instead of committing to a stable and sustainable funding scheme, we see Welsh Ministers relying on annual settlements that provide no indication of future trajectory. This is crucial if we are serious about further devolution. I hope, with a change of Government this year in Westminster, that the Welsh Government and the Home Office will work together to provide additional support for the future funding of devolved policing, an indication of a pathway to devolved policing and a plan to devolve funding formulas to allow Welsh Government to produce a fairer funding system that works for all across Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Heledd Fychan AS: One of the things that hit the headlines last week was around the SchoolBeat.Cymru project or initiative, and obviously it's been of huge concern, both to the police, police and crime commissioners and schools, but also people within the community I represent, that this is coming to an end. Obviously, the police have decided to fund it for the rest of the academic year, but it was disappointing to find out that there'd been no consultation, no conversation around the end to this programme. In terms of its impact, I think all those testimonies speak for themselves. It was very powerful to read on the news, but also in the e-mails I've received from teachers, stating about the impact that they can see from that investment of having the police being able to engage, and also how that actually tackles issues before they escalate and avoids people then having to go down that youth justice route that we don't want to have to engage in.
There are so many different issues that are covered in those lessons, from substance abuse, safeguarding, behaviours, but also anti-racism; so many issues that they are able to proactively engage with and in that kind of environment that is safe and welcoming. So, I would ask the Welsh Government what considerations have been given, following those criticisms of and concerns about that cut to that specific funding stream, to ensure that that work does not disintegrate with the loss of that funding. Because prevention, in the long term, will save in terms of public funding, so I would very much want to know will those conversations now take place, if they didn't happen before that decision was taken, and how we can ensure that those programmes can continue in schools.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government to reply to the debate. Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you. I'll just begin, really, by recognising the benefits to police and crime commissioners of indicative funding for future years. However, this isn't always feasible and it's not helpful, I know, for commissioners in respect of medium-term financial planning, but as the funding arrangements do cover England and Wales, it's not possible for the Welsh Government to publish information without details on Home Office funding.
Just to reference briefly the review of the funding formula, which is currently in progress, UK Government Ministers have confirmed their intention to complete this work before the next general election. The Home Office does recognise that the current police funding formula is out of date and no longer accurately reflects demand on policing, and the UK Government is committed to introducing a new formula that, it says, will fairly and transparently distribute core funding to the 43 police forces in England and Wales.
So, a technical phase of the review is currently under way and that will deliver proposals for new funding arrangements. A senior sector group and technical reference group have been convened with representation from the policing sector and relevant experts to lead on development of a new formula. The Home Office will continue to work closely with the sector throughout the review, and any proposals will be subject to a full public consultation before being implemented, and obviously we would want our Welsh Government officials to continue to stay close to that work and continue to receive those updates on it.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Rebecca Evans AC: I, of course, understand the concerns that have been raised about the Wales police schools programme. That wasn't an easy decision by any means, but I think that it's just a really good example—another good example this afternoon—of the tough choices that we've had to make in terms of our budget for next year. In prioritising the NHS and local government, it has meant changing our approach to some programmes across Government, and in that context we did have to make that difficult decision to withdraw funding for the Wales police schools programme at the end of this financial year.
It is worth recognising that the landscape around well-being for learners on a range of important issues has changed significantly since that programme was introduced. Many areas are now subject matter that would normally be considered in the health and well-being area of learning, and all of those were traditionally covered by the WPSP. But Welsh Government officials will be working with a range of internal and external stakeholders to examine what existing or alternative provision and resources are available to ensure that children are given relevant information to allow them to make informed decisions and to keep them safe. But just to emphasise again that that wasn't a decision that was taken lightly, and certainly not one that we would have wanted to take had our financial situation been different.
And then, just briefly, to reflect on police community support officers, we're still providing over £15 million of funding for PCSOs, despite this area being reserved to the UK Government. This money is provided over and above the funding that police forces will receive from the UK Government. It provides additional investment in Welsh communities that isn't available to forces in England. And also, the Welsh Government's funding for transport PCSOs from the climate change portfolio is unaffected, and I'm pleased that we are able to continue funding in this important area. We provide £0.5 million in funding every year for transport PCSOs, and this funding also supports a police sergeant and part funding of one police inspector.
Although, talking about priorities again, we have made the decision to prioritise spending on community safety in the areas that are devolved to the Welsh Government. That includes maintaining or increasing our spending in areas such as the Wales Hate Support Centre, violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', the women's justice blueprint, and the community cohesion programme. The full extent of this investment is set out in our draft budget.
Just to say 'thank you' to my colleague the Minister for Social Justice, who has the day-to-day relationships with our police colleagues, and I know that those relationships are very, very constructive indeed.
And then just to finally recognise the difficult backdrop against which decision will be taken in respect of the setting of the precept. Unlike in England, we have retained the freedom for Welsh PCCs to make their own decisions about council tax increases. Setting the precept is a key part of the PCCs' role, and it demonstrates their accountability to the local electorate. All our PCCs have been consulting with their communities on the level of local funding for 2024-25, and I know that they'll be keenly aware of the cost-of-living pressures that many households continue to face, and I do expect PCCs to act in a reasonable manner by consulting local residents and the constituent councils, and having sensible budget plans and medium-term financial plans in place, and also reflecting on previous council tax decisions in their areas too.
So, just finally, Llywydd, to conclude by recognising the important work that the police do for our communities right across Wales. They're an absolutely key part of an integrated public service, working with health boards, local councils, and other partners as part of our joined-up approach to community safety here in Wales.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections and we will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

12. Voting Time

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That brings us to voting time, and we will move to the votes, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung. We will therefore move to our first vote on the Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) Regulations 2024. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote.

No recording is available of the meeting between 19:09 and 19:11.

Item 9. The Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) Regulations 2024: For: 27, Against: 14, Abstain: 11
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I call for a vote on the motion on the police settlement, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 41, 11 abstentions and none against. And, therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 11. Debate: The Police Settlement 2024-25: For: 41, Against: 0, Abstain: 11
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That concludes voting time.

The meeting ended at 19:11.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Sian Gwenllian: What assessment has the Government made regarding whether plans to build gas stations in Arfon are compatible with the Well-being of Future Generations Act?

Vaughan Gething: The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the principles of sustainable development, as defined in the Act, will form part of the assessment of any planning application.

Laura Anne Jones: How does the Welsh Government work with British overseas territories?

Vaughan Gething: Our International Strategy sets out our approach to our international work. Our flexible approach means that we welcome new partners who can support our work to promote Wales overseas, including those in the British Overseas Territories.

Cefin Campbell: Will the First Minister make a statement on electrical grid capacity in Mid and West Wales?

Vaughan Gething: Electricity demand in Wales will increase substantially due to electrification of heat, transport and business needs. We need a strategic solution to updating our grid infrastructure to give people reliable access to clean heat, transport, and fair work. The Welsh Government published the Future Grids for Wales report in July 2023.

Joel James: Will the First Minister make a statement on the support farmers will receive for maintaining sites of special scientific interest on their land?

Vaughan Gething: Farmers who have sites of special scientific interest on their land play a vital role in safeguarding our precious natural environment. The Sustainable Farming Scheme consultation seeks views on how to manage these sites and I encourage everyone to have their say and respond to the consultation.